Ok I don't know the code, but I've done a bonus off a bonus -- where bonus 1 (box 2) was dependent on the original box (box 1). Then bonus two (box 3) was dependent on Bonus 1 (Box 2). That satisfies the "AND" in this scenario, if you can't find Bonus 1 (box 2) without finding the original (Box 1).

Cross eyed yet? That doesn't satisfy the "or" though.

As far as database queries go, the OR option is terribly slow. Basically, it has to run two separate queries and merge the results together. It's pretty much always going to be slower than an AND option. If the search is already a slow running search (depending on the other parameters), it'll basically double the time to run the query.

So.... I wouldn't count on that ever happening! Splitting the logbook into finds on listed boxes and unlisted boxes was strictly because merging the two separate queries was so terribly slow! I just couldn't find a way to make it faster. Running two queries separately was exponentially faster than trying to have the database merge them immediately. *nodding*

-- Ryan

Munkeybee explained the AND dependency which should work providing the finds are sequential. There may be a way to have an OR option with no code changes. Although it's a nonstandard usage of the existing system!

List two (or more) stamps in one box. So there is one AQ number. This is usually done when there are multiple stamps in one box, obviously. But you could explain in the clues that these two (or more) stamps with the same AQ number are actually in different locations.

It does sound a bit unusual but perhaps this would somehow work for your planned purposes? One disadvantage is that you can not log individual stamps in a single box separately. But you may be able to work around this by structuring the game a bit differently?

Sounds like a fun concept!

Unfortunately this doesn't work with the multiple starting points part.


I'm an unapologetic purist. I don't log or list multiple stamps in a single box as multiple finds, but I also won't list multiple boxes as one plant.

My plan currently is to have more of the boxes be available as starting locations, and half having dependencies. Then half of those "unlocking" the final few boxes.

When posting my clues to a box with a hike of 9.6 miles, I was surprised that the choice given was a backpack (8+ miles). This hike is a day hike and does not require backpacking, so it would be nice to have another choice for longer hikes. Maybe Longer Trek or Long Day Hike. Then change the backpack icon to not reflect miles so it could be a recommendation that the box would be better attempted during a backpacking trip (I have such a series on LbNA that requires backpacking the Sneffels Traverse).

First, using that icon to mean more than distance is not what it was designed for. That's like saying the 2-4 mile hike is for single-boot-wearing people.

Second, a very large majority of boxers limit themselves to a couple miles at most! They would consider 8+ miles to be equivalent as hiking the AT!
I'm in the minority and will do a full day hike of many miles, but even at only 4-6 miles I'll have a backpack of some sort, often for water.

Third, Ryan has refused to add more icons and even removed a few, the new focus is "Keywords"

Most of us don't consider 9 miles to be a day hike. Seriously.

And don't we all carry a backpack when we hike? The term backpack just means a bag with shoulder straps used to carry things. And I think that's what most of us think of when we use the term.

Maybe you have a different definition of backpack, like one would use on a long overnight camping trip? It's a matter of terminology. Use the key word 'dayhike' and let each boxer decide for him or herself if 9 miles is a day hike.

As others have already noted, a backpack doesn't mean the hike requires backpacking. But it's probably long enough that someone is likely to have a daypack at the very least for water or snacks or something. Or a jacket, or umbrella, or whatever.


Those particular icons are meant to describe distances. That's their whole purpose! =)

I know of some wonderful areas that you can backpack to (and spend the night) that are just a couple of miles from a trailhead and other places that pretty much require an overnight or two to reach, but for the most part, I don't really associate a "backpacking trip" with any particular distance.

RIclimber mentioned that I'm leaning away from using icons, but it's not so much that as the icons are meant more for searching purposes than to describe the kind of experience someone is likely to have. People might choose which box to look for based on how far of a walk it is, but there aren't many people searching for boxes that you can hike out to and spend a nice night in the woods.

Yeah, okay, I'm sure we'd be the exceptions to the rule, but most normal people aren't interested in that kind of search. ;o)

So it's not so much that I'm against using icons, but that a "backpacking" icon isn't particularly useful for searching purposes since it doesn't tell anyone about how far the hike is which is usually what most people are interested in.

But I've gotten countless requests for all sorts of "experience" type of icons over the years, which is why I created the keyword search option. Basically, it allows an unlimited number of options for people to describe aspects of the box that aren't necessarily the things people are likely to search or filter on. (They can search for those keywords, but they aren't ones that most people would be interested in.)

Most of the keywords that are displayed are the most commonly used ones people have entered. While it might be nice to know you can get ice cream at a particular locale where you might look for a box, you probably don't want to exclude those that don't have ice cream either! It's just not a useful term for searching purposes, and I kind of feel the same about backpacking.

There actually did used to be an even longer option for distance... 15 miles, I think? But it was almost never used. Less than a hundred boxes or something, and many of them weren't even listed correctly, so I just got rid of the category and moved all of the boxes into the 8+ miles category. But it did allow for me to add the "indoors" category. The information is stored in a "byte", one bit per distance, and to keep it within one byte, I could only have a maximum of 8 categories. So retiring the 15+ mile category allowed me to replace it with the "indoor" category which gets MUCH more use and is likely to be searched on much more often.

-- Ryan

It is still listed in the help glossary of icons.
A thru-hike requires 15 or more miles round-trip of hiking, and will typically take most people a minimum of 8 hours to complete.

I was trying to figure out how it didn't fit in the 8 options, then I realized the non selected option isn't in the glossary!

Ok, as long as everyone shares this view of what a backpack is, then it is no problem. I have always assumed backpack meant backpacking, and daypack meant day hike. I just didn't want people to automatically dismiss a box because of the backpack option.
Forgive my lack of understanding of things on AQ. I know LbNA much better and only fairly recently started posting clues on AQ along with LbNA.

Really? I can understand not wanting to hike 9 miles, but everyone should be able to do it as a day hike if desired unless physically disabled. Even going just 1 mile/hour you could do it in 9 hours.

Well that can be fixed easily enough. =)


The non-selected option needed its own space because people wanted a way to search for boxes that didn't have a distance listed. "I want all boxes that are drive-bys or have no distance listed" kind of thing, and without giving a specific bit for that option, there wasn't really a way to select if someone wanted to include or exclude the "no distance listed" boxes.

But yes, that's where one of the bits is used. =)

-- Ryan

Sure. That’s obvious. But I was responding to your post of it ::being:: 9 miles….that most of us would not consider an actual physical 9 miles to be a day hike.

That being said, I think icons in general are better being kept at a minimum. I’ve always felt that all the varying specifics that can go into the information for a box can easily be included at the beginning of clues. And keywords are very useful for that, especially when a planter can choose their own and not just use one from the list.

You make use of AQ for ::finding:: boxes because you know that’s where most of them are listed. Maybe if you make use of it for listing your plants you will begin to learn the features of the site and how they are used.

And I'm saying it is a day hike for most people in reasonable shape. Also, what gives you the right to speak for "most of us". I would hope that the longer hike letterboxes would give some people the incentive to get in shape and try them.


Not sure if you meant this the way it sounds but it came across as condescending to me. I do use AQ for listing my plants now and for the record, I still use LbNA as much as AQ for finding boxes.

I'm in my 30s and in "above average" fitness. I can definitely hike 10+ miles in a day and wish there was more boxes that were long hikes! (My long hikes like that are finding several smaller series in the same park) I consider the backpack icon to mean you will want/need to carry supplies for this hike, even if it is not a tent.

I have also attended many events in several sections of the country. The average age of letterboxers (who attend events at least) is probably 60+ and while not disabled in any classic definition, most are probably limited to just a couple miles per day. At some point the endurance just isn't there.

Yes, I also have "that friend" who in her 20's got dropped off at one end of a 78 mile hiking trail and picked up at the other end the next day! I often thought Ryan should hire her for adding trails to W4F!

I just looked at a camping event i recently attended (so already leaning towards outdoorsy people) and of the ~50 people signed up I would be very surprised if half could hike 10 miles in a day, and maybe 20% (about 10 including myself) would want to! In fact, I only know of 4 (again including myself) that did more than a couple miles.

I could use your logic and say that most people can ride a bike at 10mph easily, so "Anybody" could do 100+ miles in a day. After all, that's only 10 hours! I know for a fact that my legs protest badly at 20 miles and the pain is beyond what I want to endure for fun at the 22 mile mark. Of course I could work on it and probably get my distance back up (I was often riding 40+ as a teen) but I would never consider 100 miles a "Relaxing day ride"

Considering I get tired hiking around the 12 mile mark... I certainly hope I can still do a 9+ mile day hike at your age!

I just saw this part. That icon looks like a school bag and not anything I would want to use for an overnight trip! I think of the classic overstuffed bag taller than the person with a sleeping bag at the bottom. Everyone knows that Clipart!

If there was a better word for the 4-8 mile option, I would agree that Trek fits the 8+ mile adventure better!
Or maybe just call the longest option "An Adventure"??

I just hit the "funny" button and then slid to the floor in exhaustion.

I can only go by years of knowing many, many different boxers and what kind of hikes most of them have and are choosing to find boxes. And the fact that it’s ::very::rare to find a box listed with that icon for 8+ miles.


I’m just looking at your own words. We all know you have been boxing for many, many years and most boxes are listed on AQ.

I’m saying it seems to me that for you, AQ has been ok for finding boxes but not for listing plants. I guess you have had your reasons. You said that you just “recently” started listing plants here.

It’s not meant to be condescending. I’m not claiming to be superior. It’s just my personal interpretation of your actions. That’s all it is.

For me, the icons are just a visual clue, not some type of specific parameter. The special gear icon is a snarkle mask but special gear could mean ropes and climbing gear. The icon is just a visual token representing a category, not a specific recommendation.

I wear a daypack for all letterbox quests exceeding 25 feet from the car. When I leave the pack behind I usually regret it, as the pack contains 25 pounds of letterbox maintenance supplies. And bear spray. And bug spray. And water for the dog. And geocaching supplies. And etc...

10 miles on flat ground in cool temps might be a day hike. At my age it's more about the duration than the distance. Anything longer than 4 hours on the trail is just not fun. And I am in fairly good shape for my age.

I find the icons useful to quickly categorize search results, but do not really care if changes are made. I will adapt :)

Originally I used a boat icon, but then people thought it meant a boat was required to use that icon. Or perhaps you took a ferry (i.e. on a boat) to get somewhere, even though it's considered a normal mode of transportation. (For instance, near Seattle is Vashon Island, and you need to use a ferry to get there, but it's not really "special equipment." Just a normal part of the transit system to get to Vashon Island.) So it didn't get used where it should have been, but was being used in situations where it wasn't supposed to be used, so I tried to think of something "ridiculous" that got people off the whole "boat" concept, and that mask was what I came up with. =)

Of course, there are boxes planted in locations where a boat is required and I would consider the boat special equipment--if you have to bring the boat yourself! But it seems less confusing for people nowadays.

-- Ryan

For quite a while, I have been wishing to have the ability to edit my statistics page. It would be interesting to see like the top 50/100 planters. Who is among the top 20 of finders on my own boxes? The top ten barely changes, and most of the planters had events. I was just curious to see beyond ten.

Also, long ago LbNA had a page that showed not just the newest boxes, but the newest ones for any given region or state. Could that return? I really like see what is new in a specific state for LbNA on the website. There is the new boxes page, but it does not allow filtering.

I recall reading that we might be able to have our plants be listed on both. Would this also extend to finds? I am debating on going through and logging my finds on both sites.

Thank you!

I always thought that Finds by Find Date would be an interesting addition to the statistics page.

Agree!

That is still available for Ruby-level supporters. =) https://www.letterboxing.org/donate/


Actually, it's finds I'm more interested in than the plants. Plants can be listed on both websites once and not have to change so much. Being able to record finds for both sites at the same time is a heck of a lot more useful.

But it's a lot work so I'm not making any promises when it'll be finished. If you want to log finds for both sites, go ahead, but for now, I'd probably just log them on both sites as you find them. Going back to add them retroactively seems like a lot of unnecessary effort!

-- Ryan

I thought I did the sapphire-level recently, and I remember receiving the patch and sticker, but I don't see a badge next to my name?

Done and at a higher level. Not sure if my address went through, but it should be correct on AQ.

I meant to donate months ago!

I see the badge fine. =)

It doesn't show up next to your name practically everywhere like it does on AQ, so you're probably just looking at a page where the badges aren't displayed. If you go to the Member Services page, though, you can see definitively what your level is (and previous donations among all sorts of other information).

I'm rather proud of the redesign of that page. I think it looks really good! =)

-- Ryan

I can't find any address for you on AQ.

You can add your address on the LbNA site from the Member Services page by clicking the "Add Address" button which takes you to https://www.letterboxing.org/members/account/add-address.php.

Addresses are currently not shared between websites, though. AQ will save them whenever you make an AQ order, but that's it, and AQ doesn't have any record of you making an order.

LbNA won't even send a notification for us to send swag if there's no address listed with your account since the website thinks we can't send it anyhow.

So definitely list your address if you're expecting some swag!

-- Ryan

That's odd. My address shows under my information on here.

However, I just added my address to LbNA. Looking forward to the swag.

I was scratching my head about what this could possibly refer to, so I double-checked and saw no AQ orders from you which is the only reason AQ ever asks for your address.

Then I had that "ah-ha!" moment and looked up the "location" you specified in your account settings. For the most part, it's usually used by people just to put in the city where they live if they enter anything at all--which why it didn't occur me to check there.

But that's data that even admins can't actually see. There's not really any reason for us to see it. It's the location AQ uses when you click the "home" button for a search, or at add your state as a favorite on the message boards automatically, but that's about it and the only reason I could see it was because I had to hack into the database to see your account settings.

So yeah, your "location" in your account settings is not really something admins can check or monitor. At least not very easily! The only time AQ saves an address and displays it is for AQ orders. Otherwise, no addresses required! =)

-- Ryan