*yawn....... where is the bloodshed???? Seriously! I want to see sparks fly!

~Says the girl from the lazy state that mostly has short loop trails...

Sorry, it's hard to have a good bloodbath and keep it PG for the boards! We might have to continue this at a mini-meet ;)

Call it "bonus mileage", call it "cheater mileage", I don't care.

It's the mileage that the clue writer chose to have me hike, and I'm counting it.

Ya know, I really can't have people thinking you are a cheater. That's really not the case.

Y'all wanna know where this all comes from?
I did a hike in Maine and didn't find several of the boxes in a series. I opted to only count what I found. This meant that my TH mileage was reduced.

So this whole "argument" started from an attempt to get ME to count MORE on that series. Kind of funny, isn't it?

So I'm not really mad at him. I think it's kind of cute. I just irritate the crap out of him by being "stubborn" in how he perceives I may be "cheating" myself. ;)

Either that, or he wants me to hurry up and earn the miles so I stay the freak out of Maine! LOL! Also, a possibility -- I think he tried to kill me on the last hike we were on...

*yawn....... where is the bloodshed???? Seriously! I want to see sparks fly!

I know!! The virtual thing just isn't the same!! I need to have a good Thumb Wrestling Match like I did with Bluebirdlover!!

I say he comes to NC this time for his butt whooping!

You Dork!

Correct description, incorrect quantity!

I did a hike in Maine and didn't find several of the boxes in a series. I opted to only count what I found. This meant that my TH mileage was reduced.

You hiked 6.3 miles following 3 series and found 5 out of 7 of the boxes. You didn't hike anything that wasn't prescribed be the clues to those series (and you even short-cutted significantly), and then you "discounted" the mileage to less than half (and less than the value of any one of the series) because two of the boxes weren't found. Then you called me a cheater because I said that I would count it.

You didn't hike anything that wasn't prescribed be the clues to those series (and you even short-cutted significantly), and then you "discounted" the mileage to less than half (and less than the value of any one of the series) because two of the boxes weren't found.

If you hiked the trail as prescribed by the clues, Wolfie, passed by where the boxes should have been but they weren't and it was all in a series sort of thing, as in the unfound boxes were followed by found boxes in succession, then I'm with Aiphid on this.

The mileage counts and you are weird for not doing so. :-)

then you "discounted" the mileage to less than half (and less than the value of any one of the series) because two of the boxes weren't found. Then you called me a cheater because I said that I would count it.

The funny part is that YOU never cheated! The only person's mileage it impacted was mine!

The funny part is that YOU never cheated!

I'm sure that if I went through my logbook, I would find series that I logged that had a box or two missing. So, I did cheat.

If you hiked the trail as prescribed by the clues, Wolfie, passed by where the boxes should have been but they weren't and it was all in a series sort of thing, as in the unfound boxes were followed by found boxes in succession

That's what I was having a hard time with -- whether or not there were FOUND boxes after the series of UNFOUND. It makes sense to me to have a bunch of boxes in the MIDDLE as attempts but you find the one at the end so all the mileage counts.

But if you ONLY find the one at the BEGINNING and NOTHING after that, I'm not counting the miles beyond that.

Right or wrong, my conscientous doesn't allow that. And I have no problem shorting myself rather than adding miles toward boxes I did not find. But I also have no problem with how Aiphid wants to do it. I don't consider him a "cheater" in anyway if he opts to play a little different. I know darn well he puts in a TON of very difficult mileage!

So, I did cheat.

Nope. Originally, you were supposed to not count mileage if you didn't find a box at the end of it. I'm more of the mind now that, OK, for a single box, I wouldn't count the mileage with no find. If I go after a series though and find at least one of the boxes, I'll count the whole thing as long as I'm following the clues and the clues lead you over the whole stretch of trail.

So you and I can sit in the cheaters corner and talk about Wolfie behind her back.

Knit wit

I would find series that I logged that had a box or two missing. So, I did cheat.

Nope. As a motivator in your state, I absolutely respect your right to run it as you choose. NY runs theirs entirely differently.

You may see things differently, but that does not make you a "cheater" or "wrong". You are doing the best job you know how to do, just as you always do. :)

You are doing the best job you know how to do

A compliment of the backhanded variety?

A compliment of the backhanded variety?

Oooo... it does kind of look like that, doesn't it?

But, nah. I'll rephrase that: Aiphid is doing a fantastic job.
And Knit Wit is one of the original creators of the program so as far as I'm concerned, what she says goes.

I admit defeat!

what she says goes.

While I appreciate the thought, I would add a "for her" to that statement.

My physical circumstances have changed a bit since 2009. At the moment my knees and back will no longer let me hike for more than about five miles total. This is why, if I went on a six to eight mile hike and was able to walk out, I would count those points even with only one find. It would be a red-letter day to hike that far.

You keep doing it your way if that's what you want. It gives you more opportunity to go to Maine and annoy Aiphid. You need to do that as much as you can. :-)

Knit Wit

I would add a "for her" to that statement.

"For her" matters, my friend. I remember you are the one that set up the Wiki for the Treasure Hikers. If you want to change it a bit, I am 100% for that. As far as I am concerned, there would be no program at all, if you had not been a part of starting it. We are the moderators for NC. I am in full agreement with however you would like to run that program with me.

And, yes, I know how things have changed for you. I was with you when we did the 7 mile hike along the French Broad river years ago. I was with you this year for the short hike you had to struggle through. But the company was the same -- couldn't be better.

And I can find ways to annoy Aiphid without trips to Maine. ;)

All this over when you can have the privilege of buying a small token?

I count all miles from when I leave the car to when I return. As counted by my GPS. It might be 'cheating', but I had over 250 miles in my state (from 2012) that don't count because it was before the state had a prize set up! So it all evens out.

I think all miles from 2009 should count - even if it took until now for your state to start selling prizes!

Now I just put all my miles into W4F and don't keep track of TH. I have far more miles then needed for my local states and I can't afford to buy pathtags anyway.

I think all miles from 2009 should count - even if it took until now for your state to start selling prizes!

Well, you do have to look at when the state lists the program as starting. That's a rule up to the moderators of that state. But most do list back to 2009.

Sorry, it's hard to have a good bloodbath and keep it PG for the boards! We might have to continue this at a mini-meet ;)

I can arrange this ......
Plan it......
Sell tickets .......
take bets .......
Oh .... and serve cake too ......
or ....
perhaps ......... serve CROW ??.........

Mary Ann

I was just stressing the fact that the program from the beginning was run on the honor system, at least in NC.

I'll leave it up to the conscience of the individual hiker. :-)

Knit Wit

Well, you are too late with the ticket selling! He already kicked my butt!! But if we can ever get him to NC, I promise to start a new fight with him, and I totally get a cut on the ticket sales!!
Of course, this might be one of the things causing him to steer clear of the state....

You will have a difficult time trying to legislate integrity into letterboxing.

This program is run completely by the honor system and relies on the ethics of the participants. The planter prescribes how they would like the letterboxers to experience their box. The finder is under no obligation to follow the exact clues and is free to retrieve the box anyway they see fit. At this point however, it is the duty of the finder to record their hike accurately as the program is always dependent on the boxer recording their miles truthfully.

The finder is under no obligation to follow the exact clues and is free to retrieve the box anyway they see fit.

This one sentance struck me silly..... I want to try retrieving a box with out useing my hands. New challenge! I think some on the ground might be possible with my feet... good thing I often hike barefoot. Now for those stuck in the crotch of a tree... hmm.... do I dare attempt to pull them using my teeth? New game.... bobbing for letterboxes!

I wont rely on the honor system, youll have to go with you hands tied behind your back, and memorize your clues... but stamping in with no hands... hmm... thats a new tough one.....

After following along with this, I have never been so glad that I never started tracking my hikes for Treasure Hiker points. I hike because I can, because I want to, and because I love letterboxing under bright blue clear fall skies. All this back and forth wears me out.

I am glad you enjoy it, but I think you are both going to have to agree to disagree...

I am more annoyed with a hike that is posted as a long one, but was clearly misrepresented. It was about 1/2 to 2/3 the advertised hike length. Thank goodness for Box Radar as I had time for more boxes but had not printed any clues! But my pedometer is sad...

I have never been so glad that I never started tracking my hikes for Treasure Hiker points.

Wow. That completely backfired. I'm sorry! :(

But we did agree in the end! Aiphid is right. I apologize for creating the chaos I did. I seemed like fun at the time. But I do tend to get carried away....

Really, it's not that hard. I was just being a dork. Look:

Here's the only rule: One point for each mile hiked while letterboxing, either finding or planting, on hikes of 1 mile or longer round trip.

Here's the only rule: One point for each mile hiked while letterboxing, either finding or planting, on hikes of 1 mile or longer round trip.

But what happens if you do the hiking but cannot find the letterbox?
Can you still count the miles?

Can you still count the miles?

If it was a single box in and out, then the decision was made in 2009 that, no, you shouldn't. A series where one or two boxes were missing might be different, though I did see an old message on this board where the poster stated that if the first box in a series was there, but the following boxes were gone, the mileage for the following boxes should not count.

Once again, it is the honor system. Do as your conscience urges you to do. I am not going pass judgment on what should be a personal decision.

And mileage never counted for maintenance or accompanying others to find boxes that you have previously found, even if it is a new find for THEM.

Knit Wit

I couldn't even walk one mile. Now I can do 10 in a day.

I'm not going to condemn you. The program was intended to get people to hike longer distances and to plant on longer trails. Sounds like it has done that for you and that is freakin' fantastic! Well done! :-)

Knit Wit

I am more annoyed with a hike that is posted as a long one, but was clearly misrepresented. It was about 1/2 to 2/3 the advertised hike length.

I once had the opposite problem. The planter had listed the one way distance as the round trip distance. My 4 mile hike turned out to be 8 miles, which I discovered about half way out to the box. Luckily, I had no other plans for the day so I was able to get the box, but my feet weren't happy with me at the end of the day.

After following along with this, I have never been so glad that I never started tracking my hikes for Treasure Hiker points. I hike because I can, because I want to, and because I love letterboxing under bright blue clear fall skies. All this back and forth wears me out.

Oh, don't let us turn you off to the program. The wolf was giving me a hard time and I was giving her a hard time back. And debating is fun!

In no way does our back and forth have any reflection of what the moderators do when you send them your list of miles :)

I am more annoyed with a hike that is posted as a long one, but was clearly misrepresented.

Oh, I know that! I've set aside chunks of time to do long series only to find out that they're less than a mile long, and then I have to scramble to find other boxes to do to fill in the rest of that time. AQ also asks people to "up" the distance to a harder icon based on difficulty, so strolls on hills often get bumped up to 1 milers or 2-4 milers! I'd much prefer straight distance-based icons, especially since it's trivially easy to get topo maps in the age of the cloud :)