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Every child caves in to peer preasure. Everyone of them! It comes at school, at church, on the playground at the park, at the skating rink, at an aunt and uncle's house, during a sleepover, peer preasure is a full speed player.

I respectfully disagree. Peer pressure only affects children who have not been properly prepared for it. If what you say were true, we would all be drug addicts -- every last one of us that lived through the 60's, anyway.

It all depends upon strength of character. When faced with the challenge of doing something stupid just because everyone else is doing it, does one dive right in? And claim later "Everyone else was doing it!" Or does one have the strength of character to respond "I am not the type of person who would do this." And tell the "peers" to have fun, count me out.

If the person has that strength of character, just where do you think he got it? From a comic book? From a video game? From his peers? Think again! He got it from his parents. Parents that did a good job.

-- Kirbert

No one (except maybe Kirbert) makes it from the cradle to the grave without caving to peer pressure occasionally. Making mistakes is part of growing up. When you have good parents, you'll get over it and live to regret those actions and work to improve your behavior. When you have poor parents, maybe you won't. Impossible to tell from a single instance of bad behavior which it is.

DebBee

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I smoked for 15 years although both of my parents tried to discourage it with reason and then discipline.

An excellent example. I am 52 years old. By the time I was 8, it was already clear to me that taking up smoking would be seriously stupid. I don't begrudge those who are older than I, because I understand that during an earlier time smoking was not considered stupid -- healthy, even -- and once started it is clearly very difficult to stop.

But how am I supposed to view those younger than I who have taken up smoking? There are only a few possibilities, and none of them reflect well on the person. At the very best, this person was raised badly. To be more critical, he's clearly dumb as a box of rocks; nobody with brains that work would ever take up such a habit knowing what we know today about the effects of tobacco.

My older brother and his wife both smoke non-stop. Their sons don't smoke. My stepsister and her husband smoke, or used to, and both of their kids smoke. The difference? The best I've been able to tell is that none of the four parents did a particularly good job in this area, but the two sons of my brother attended a karate class of some sort when they were very young, and in the course of taking the class became very impressed with the instructor and his outlook on life. And that instructor instilled in them the strength of character to be the type of people they choose to be rather than be blown around by the winds of peer pressure, advertising, or public opinion polls. And it apparently stuck.

Your parents clearly failed you, at least in this respect. Reason clearly didn't work, and discipline never will in cases like this. What they failed to do was instill the sense of self-determination necessary to help you make intelligent decisions on your own.

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...you can not know what it is like to see your kids make a mistake...

Writing obscenities in a log book is not a "mistake". Unless they simply didn't know how to spell "Thanks for hiding this letterbox" and got really unlucky in their misspellings.

-- Kirbert

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I respectfully disagree. Peer pressure only affects children who have not been properly prepared for it. If what you say were true, we would all be drug addicts -- every last one of us that lived through the 60's, anyway.

You make it sound like all peer pressure has to be bad. What about peer pressure to NOT to drugs? If I'm hanging out with a bunch of peers that think drug addicts are a bunch of wussies, I might be less inclined to experiment than if I hung around those who regularly indulge.

Peer pressure works both ways, you know, and everyone is affected by it to some degree or another. Heck, I'm influenced by it when I develop new features on Atlas Quest. Bunch of people e-mail me and say, "Hey, you should add blue diamonds to the glossary," and I think, "Well, I don't really think of that as a letterboxing term, per se, but doesn't hurt and it makes them happy, so may as well." Whatever. =) I caved easily even though I didn't really think it was all that necessary because.... why not? There wasn't much downside to adding it, and it makes some people happy.

Peer pressure makes the world a better place. =) At least some of the time. Especially when everyone does what I tell them. ;o)

-- Ryan

Another thing is, not all bad decisions are made because of peer pressure. Kids do stupid stuff for a lot of reasons--sometimes for reasons they can't even articulate. Parents are (or shoud be) there to correct that, but they can't *prevent* all stupid decisions.

DebBee

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You make it sound like all peer pressure has to be bad. What about peer pressure to NOT to drugs?

That will work for a day or two. The problem remains that the child involved is susceptible to peer pressure at all, good or bad, rather than having the strength of character to make the relatively easy decision to do what's good for himself -- hanging out with the right crowd, staying off of dope, practicing safe sex, being an honest and admirable and proud person in general, you name it.

I've never tried it, but I've often wondered how difficult it might be. If you took your kid and sat him down one evening and had a discussion with him in which you explained that, throughout his life, there will be choices to be made and control to be exerted. His parents won't always be there, his friends won't always be there, the police won't always be there; many times he will have to decide for himself what sort of person he wants to be. Does he want to be a crackhead? If not, maybe it'd be a good idea to refrain from that particular temptation. Does he want to be a teenage parent? If not, maybe he should behave accordingly. Does he want to catch HIV or whatever other STD's are floating around out there? If not, maybe he should think about exerting some control over that aspect of his own life rather than relying on his parents to tell him what to do. Does he want to have a successful career? If so, maybe he should think about hitting the books a little harder.

It's simply amazing how much control a person can have over his own life, when you think about it. You don't just "fall into" being a high school dropout, or a junkie, or a teenage parent, or a convict, or whatever; each of these outcomes is the result of bad decisions, decisions that should have been really easy to make. If one even makes the case to one's kids that there are decisions to be made and consequences to those decisions, so choose your own course rather than let yourself be influenced by anybody else, maybe the concept would stick in a few cases. I'm not convinced that most parents are even making the case; they just keep saying "Do what I tell you or else!" and giving them a whipping every now and then and calling it good parenting.

The whole issue comes down to control. Parents want to control their kids to keep them out of trouble, but the harder they try, the more the kids rebel. The kids don't want to be controlled -- but if the parents are too busy trying to exert control rather than teach their children how to exert self-control, you end up with kids that are out of control. Conversely, if the kids are taught how to make good decisions for themselves and to control their own behavior, they quickly find their parents being less and less overbearing.

This is exactly what I was trying to say before. Parents can't keep their kids tied up in the yard. They can't prevent everything. It is not the parents fault when the kid makess a mistake. They are responsible but not to blame unless there is some real neglect going on. In my case, I started smoking when I was 18 and I smoked until I had my 1st heart attack, but it wasn't because my parents didn't try to teach me not to. All of my friends smoked so I hid from my parents and smoked as well. It was me who messed up and it was my fault. Not my parents. We, as parents, can't live with the guilt of the things our kids do, and we as kids can't blame our parents for every screw up we do. It is an application of free will and forgiveness.

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Another thing is, not all bad decisions are made because of peer pressure. Kids do stupid stuff for a lot of reasons--sometimes for reasons they can't even articulate.

Agreed. A very common reason -- we've all been there -- is they didn't think at all, they just went ahead and did something. There's not a whole lot you can do about that; you just have to bear with it and do your best to encourage thought before action. The child should be punished for the negative outcomes of acting without thinking, as encouragement to do more thinking first next time, but errors of this sort don't reflect bad parenting, they're just a part of growing up.

But writing obscenities in a log book doesn't qualify here. That is a sign of bad parenting, period.

As a reason to do something, I would do everything in my power to discourage children or adults from doing anything because of peer pressure. IMHO, peer pressure is never a good reason to do anything. And I think it'd be a good idea to instill that lesson into children as soon and as strongly as possible.

-- Kirbert

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I started smoking when I was 18...

Old enough to know better. So why didn't you?

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...it wasn't because my parents didn't try to teach me not to. All of my friends smoked so I hid from my parents and smoked as well. It was me who messed up and it was my fault.

It was your fault, agreed. But why did you make that bad decision to do what your friends were doing rather than making an intelligent (and easy) decision not to smoke? What was it about you that prevented you from making the right decision? What could have been done differently that would have resulted in you making the right decision?

-- Kirbert

Speaking as a kid whose parents were gnarly but loving. I finally decided I would just be up front with what and where I was and ask prior to the "evenings events" what the consequence would be and then I would weigh the value of them both....peers had very little to do with my life choices. I was just curious and extremely bold in the way I approach things...i still am interstingly enough. I would sometimes stay home , sometimes NOT but everyone was at least on the same page and I wasn't being dishonest....my dad gave me that much. Curfew and the phone were the tickets to my life and they knew it. But they also knew I was where I said I was , maybe not always doing what they both wanted , mom's and dad's rules differed , Dad wanted me in a bottle....you know the little girl deal....mom knew I could make choices and be responsible , she taught me well!!!

Now as a mom, my boys get enough rope to hang themselves, but not enough to snap their necks. Independence is important for us to instill in all of them! I hope that we have employed the tools we valued from our parents homes and our kids will keep the lines open. I am not stupid enough to think my kids to be the exception to any rule but I hope we are raising strong independent kids, who know who they are. I do know that they want to be liked and have friends and be "a part" of something jsut like anyone , I jsut hope they choose to lead instead of follow. I exspect the worst because of the gene pool actually, but then so far the 4 of them are great. I believe they had to come out that way to survive me as a mom...; ) If I haven't done it I have thought about it and they will be caught!!! And that will be bad!! I know that kids (I ) tried things out of plain old curiosity and boredom ....it was a way to push the limits with loving parents watching but not condesending ...until they knew it was NOT a good idea thent he foot came down.

Our families don't exsist in vaccums and for every great Karate instrutor out there ....there is a terrible dance instructor that would curl even the most jaded persons toes....do you tell mom & dad? or do you become a star? the star right....btw I can't even point my toes...that gift was given to another . So was the lovely instructor who taught her all about the REAL world...YIKES!!! There is a story we can all tell about how we got where we are and it is all based on choices...good ones bad ones , but choices....I wish sometimes I could make ones again but then I don't because NOW I love my life. Ask me tomorrow .....but for NOW I am content in where my choices have brought me.

That is a great question. I still struggle with that one, but I can assure you that it was not something that my folks did or even could have done. I moved out at 18 and picked up that nasty habit hanging around the people I worked with. It is an ongoing struggle. I typically do not smoke, but from time to time even though I have had physical trouble which I attribute to substance abuse I will still smoke. Children are influenced the most by their parents, but the bad decisions they make, unless taught by their parents, are not the parents fault. Everyone goes through bad decisions. I don't think the kids that acted on the letterbox the way they did made the decision to do so on their own. Their part in it was their decision, but I am almost certain it was a group effort. It almost always is.
At any rate, this has been a great debate, but I am going to bed. It is 10:00 PM here and 1/1/2007 will be here when I wake up. I am not going to wait up for it. Happy New Year to you, Kirbert, and to everyone else. Perhaps a resolution to make better decisions is in order for all of us. IrishRef, for instance picked Nevada over Miami. Go figure! Good night, all.

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But writing obscenities in a log book doesn't qualify here. That is a sign of bad parenting, period.

I don't know what to think about that log book! I think it's possible it was muggled by some people who invented the family of rotten children and their powerless parent. I recall being on a trail with my little doxie one day when some young people walked by. My dog thinks walks are for meeting friends and looked at these people for her usual and expected petting and tricks. (She does the tricks, the people do the petting). These people raised my hackles by their dress and body language. When they passed me, my dog stopped and looked around expectantly. Those people stopped too and began to discuss loudly what they liked to do to little dogs. I scooped her up and high tailed it back to a part of the trail with more people. I suppose I gave them the reaction they were looking for, but i couldn't take a chance that it was all talk.

This is the long way of saying that there are those on trails that are bad people who may say or do bad things. Just as folks go on line to My Space and other places, and misrepresent who they are by age, or sex, or physical attributes, I can imagine people like the ones I met up with, inventing children's identities to write mean things in a logbook.

When you folks developed this fantastic family friendly hobby, you created a wholesome activity so youngsters and parents have quality time together. This is how you raise great kids. you give of yourself. Even when they go off trail they find their way back because they know the general heading!
Eaglewatcher -Mentor a child- it's the best job you can't get paid for.

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I still struggle with that one, but I can assure you that it was not something that my folks did or even could have done.

Back it up a little, then. Was it inevitable that you would take up smoking? Or could you have gone another way?

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I don't think the kids that acted on the letterbox the way they did made the decision to do so on their own. Their part in it was their decision, but I am almost certain it was a group effort. It almost always is.

I'll agree with that. I find it difficult to imagine a person, all by himself, writing such things in a log book. It almost certainly was a group thing. And just as certainly, all the parents involved had failed their children.

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Perhaps a resolution to make better decisions is in order for all of us.

Perhaps a resolution to do better by our children would be more apropos.

-- Kirbert

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Conversely, if the kids are taught how to make decisions for themselves and to control their own behavior,...

But what happens if the kids are "taught" these things by their parents, then make their own decisions and choose not to "learn" the lessons their parent taught. Is it still the parents fault?

It's a catch 22.

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But what happens if the kids are "taught" these things by their parents, then make their own decisions and choose not to "learn" the lessons their parent taught. Is it still the parents fault?

"Lessee. I'm considering taking up smoking, a filthy, disgusting habit that will cost me hundreds of dollars per year, ruin my health, offend most of the people around me, make me about as appealing to the opposite sex as a dirty ash tray, and I'll be horribly addicted for life. Yeah, that sounds good to me."

If your kid makes this decision, he is clearly retarded. His brains just don't work. Yeah, you could say that's the parents' fault for bad genes, but really, there's nobody to blame for mental retardation, it's just bad luck.

I know lots of you out there want to try to rationalize this in any of several ways, but really the issue is pretty simple. There are many decisions out there that are absurdly easy, such as whether or not to take up smoking. It's simply not possible to make any sort of rational decision to take up smoking, and hasn't been for 40 years at least. So, by definition, we're talking about irrational behavior. And like it or not, somebody is at fault for irrational behavior -- IMHO, usually the parents for failing to teach their children to think rationally.

-- Kirbert

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I'm considering taking up smoking, a filthy, disgusting habit that will cost me hundreds of dollars per year, ruin my health, offend most of the people around me

But that's not the decision most kids are making. For them it's "I'm considering taking up smoking, which will make me look 'cool' and get me friends in the 'in crowd.' " They feel like they're invulnerable, so the health aspects don't apply to them, and fitting in is the most important thing in the world to them. Plus, at that point in their lives, annoying their parents would be seen as a plus, too. Their brains aren't done growing and maturing yet, so they sometimes make stupid decisions for stupid reasons.

DebBee

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IMHO, usually the parents for failing to teach their children to think rationally.

I know a set of twins where one boy grew up to be a doctor and the other boy is in jail.

I suppose the parents went out of their way to "teach" one son to make smart choices and completely neglected the other.

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"Lessee. I'm considering taking up smoking, a filthy, disgusting habit that will cost me hundreds of dollars per year, ruin my health, offend most of the people around me, make me about as appealing to the opposite sex as a dirty ash tray, and I'll be horribly addicted for life. Yeah, that sounds good to me."

If your kid makes this decision, he is clearly retarded. His brains just don't work. Yeah, you could say that's the parents' fault for bad genes, but really, there's nobody to blame for mental retardation, it's just bad luck.

I'm not even going to touch that one. I'm sure there are enough other's to do it.

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Lessee. I'm considering taking up smoking, a filthy, disgusting habit that will cost me hundreds of dollars per year, ruin my health, offend most of the people around me, make me about as appealing to the opposite sex as a dirty ash tray, and I'll be horribly addicted for life. Yeah, that sounds good to me."

If your kid makes this decision, he is clearly retarded. His brains just don't work.

Apparently, I'm retarded....

News to me, my parents, my high school - which awarded me a diploma, my college - which awarded me a bachelors and masters degree, the state agencies that tested and awarded me certification in two separate teaching fields, and the people who have hired me to educate others' children.

If your kid makes this decision, he is clearly retarded. His brains just don't work. Yeah, you could say that's the parents' fault for bad genes, but really, there's nobody to blame for mental retardation, it's just bad luck.


Please don't bring mental retardation into this discussion. And yes, there can be somebody to blame for mental retardation such as in the cases of fetal alcohol syndrome.

What you are talking about is teens making bad choices in spite of being taught all the good and moral values. That has been occuring as long as there have been people and recorded history. Think of all those kids who drink and drive and kill themselves or somebody else.......think their parents taught them to do that....or that those were conscious decisions to kill or maim?......or were they just bad decisions with horrible consequences? Please remember when you were a teen and a corner of your soul told you that you were bullet-proof and invincible.

However, you must admit that there are some parents who teach their kids very little. While it is not limited to a specific population, there are an inordinate number of kids who come from 1 parent homes where nobody has a JOB. You can't teach or model self-respect when you have none yourself.

Stepping off my soapbox again!
z

Maybe this discussion is best left behind in 2006.

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I know a set of twins where one boy grew up to be a doctor and the other boy is in jail.

I suppose the parents went out of their way to "teach" one son to make smart choices and completely neglected the other.

Awwww, geeee. That's not fair to say at all!

Give the doctor some time, yet.

Lots of them end up in jail.

Or maybe the parents only taught the one twin how *not* to get *caught*!

MisterSnarky (Oh, please, don't call me "Mister"

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Maybe this discussion is best left behind in 2006.

Hi Lisascenic

I think that "enough" needs to be put in the glossary of letterboxing terms.

Although it is certainly interesting how a mention of one little logbook entry morphs into the criminal activities of a Doctor, or the raising of Cain and Abel,and all without the benefits of a full moon? At least it is on the right channel....DHL&K.

Don

Thank you to who ever placed this into the dead horses and lemurs, where it belongs. I do not see any need for anyone to have to put up with these offensive, vile rants.

PB

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For them it's "I'm considering taking up smoking, which will make me look 'cool' and get me friends in the 'in crowd.' "

Which means they are succumbing to peer pressure. Which, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, is the problem. Parents need to be raising their kids to be far less susceptible to peer pressure.

Y'know, it might be fun to point out to your kids that the people they most admire and would like to emulate probably wouldn't be caught dead doing something just because other people were doing it.

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Plus, at that point in their lives, annoying their parents would be seen as a plus, too.

A parenting problem. Yes, they will seek to annoy their parents, but if raised correctly they would find ways to irritate their parents without getting hooked on addictive substances.

Of course, that's another issue. Back in the day, we could irritate our parents by wearing our hair too long or getting a tattoo. Nowadays parents are so permissive that it's very difficult to irritate them. So kids have to come up with things like nipple piercings and rap music. Parents probably need to find ways that their kids can irritate them without permanent damage.

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Their brains aren't done growing and maturing yet, so they sometimes make stupid decisions for stupid reasons.

I knew better than to start smoking when I was 8. Every single child should be fully aware of the health implications of tobacco use by age 8 or so, should be fully grounded in making sound decisions about their own lives by age 12, and should be experienced at applying that decision-making by age 16. They shouldn't be able to get their hands on cigarettes until at least mid-teens; that's the entire reason for the bans on providing minors with tobacco, that they should be mature enough to make wise decisions before being given the opportunity to make a decision this stupid.

The problems occur due to bad parenting. The parents make every decision for their children, and never give them any guidance on making their own decisions nor any opportunities to think for themselves. As a result, they graduate from high school and strike out on their own with no more maturity than would reasonably be expected of a properly-raised 12-year-old. They are suddenly faced with life-changing decisions to make with no skills or experience at making such decisions. It's no wonder that they make bonehead decisions based on such faulty reasoning as "it's what the cool people are doing."

Hey, I'm having fun here, but not much new is getting said. You all know my stand by now; I'll quit.

-- Kirbert

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If your kid makes this decision, he is clearly retarded. His brains just don't work.

Apparently, I'm retarded...

Clearly a lot of people are missing the point here. The point is, that decision is easy, anybody with brains that work would come up with the correct decision. The point is that these kids are not making this decision at all. They aren't thinking, period, they're just allowing whims and impulses to blow them this way and that.

It's not the inability to make the correct decision that I'm blaming on bad parenting. It's the lack of consideration at all prior to doing such stupid things that I'm blaming the parents for.

-- Kirbert

If you find that a certain poster is continually offending you, there is a way to ignore them. You'll need to view their profile and there is a nice little 'ignore' button there that allows it.

Works for me as I have missed most of the venom of this thread.

LB

How many kids do you have, Kirbert?

FG

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The parents make every decision for their children, and never give them any guidance on making their own decisions nor any opportunities to think for themselves.

I generally have avoided this thread since most people think Kirbert is a stubborn pain in the you-know-what and thinks he's smarter than he really is (sorry, Kirbert, but I figured you already knew that). But isn't the problem with allowing kids to think for themselves and make their own decisions cause them to also make unwise decisions? You can give kids guidance, but you can't make them listen if they don't want to.

Why do kids smoke? Peer pressure certainly can play a big roll, but I suspect there's also them trying to "feel adult" (since only adults are legally allowed to smoke) or even that they "hate" their parents and want to do something that would make them mad. It doesn't matter if it's unhealthy--the health affects won't catch up to them for a long, long time. When you're 16, the concept of dieing of lung cancer in 50 years isn't much of a deterrent.

Anyhow, you're concept of parenting has a fatal flaw which is that you cannot control every single decision, feeling, and thought that goes through a kid's head. You cannot watch a kid 24/7. Some kids are naturally smarter/stronger/whatever than others. If they all came out of the same mold, perhaps there could be a single instruction book on life. But that's not going to anytime soon.

-- Ryan

May we all have a great 2007 with a more enlightened outlook .....good luck to all the parents out there....we are all doing the best we know how with what we were given, or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. If you were appauld by the actions of the few nuts that vandalized the logbook...that is the right response. The fault lies with the people who did it, no matter how old or not ...a single person wrote and then another with malice. It is sad but it happened....the issue is that the world sometimes surprises us in bad ways and that SUCKS!!!

So tear out the pages start anew and let's get on with the great things in life...the fun to be had and the good energy that is out there. There are GOOD kids who want to find that box with parents who are working hard to build families that are strong and close ...so clean it up and replant ....cause here we come a huntin.......; )
By the way do you have any hints for where I could find it? or maybe a plane ticket??? hehe

Happy NEw YEAR TOO ALLLLL !!!!
teekasue

Are you a parent, Kirbert?