Why is it inappropriate?

Well, because of this (from the post that prompted my reply):

[...] about six feet up on a statue in the middle of a fountain chock full of goldfish and coins. [...] I *think* the only way to find it without getting observed is to pull the fire alarm

If that didn't strike you as being a problem, let me explain. First of all, the last sentence is a joke, but if someone actually did it then told others that is how they succeeded then others would also do it.

Second, the restaurant isn't going to appreciate people bothering their goldfish. The first time that someone is caught (and someone will be caught) then they will be questioned. If they give up the geocache then it is gone. But if that person somehow bluffs their way out of it the next won't, and the cache is gone.

Third, climbing the statue is going to raise more (internal) alarm than wading through the goldfish. It's an even worse problem because they could break the statue and/or fall resulting in liability.

I know a letterboxer (who I've met a few times) who prides herself as being able to hide in very public places. However, she hasn't yet (as far as I know) hide in such a place as was described. (Please don't do it. If you do I won't look for it.) One of the public places that she's already used takes extreme stealth anyway.

So, back to the original hide described. I'm not objecting to the public place (requiring extreme stealth), nor to the wading, nor the (possibly) dangerous climbing in a wet environment. I'm objecting to the combination, plus annoying the fish plus climbing a statue.

(Please don't do it. If you do I won't look for it.) One of the public places that she's already used takes extreme stealth anyway.

So, back to the original hide described. I'm not objecting to the public place (requiring extreme stealth), nor to the wading, nor the (possibly) dangerous climbing in a wet environment. I'm objecting to the combination, plus annoying the fish plus climbing a statue.

No one has actually "described" anything. No one has posted any actual details about this location. No one has mentioned that wading or climbing is required except you. And I haven't seen you mention that you know the cache in question. You're surmising and assuming as far as I can tell. I've seen fountains where I could just reach across and up to get something that is "about" six feet up. But once again we're discussing a cache we really know nothing about.

If you do I won't look for it.

So don't.

No one has actually "described" anything. No one has posted any actual details about this location.

[...] It's in a restaurant that's always busy, in a courtyard, about six feet up on a statue in the middle of a fountain chock full of goldfish and coins. It's in plain view [...] I *think* the only way to find it without getting observed is to pull the fire alarm

Isn't this details?

the restaurant isn't going to appreciate people bothering their goldfish.

Is bothering fish the new concern in hide and seek games?

Do you worry about bothering deer? Do you worry about bothering birds? Do you worry about bothering other wildlife? Do you worry about large social trails thru pristine meadows? Do you worry about bothering park people with illegal geocaches on their land putatively hidden from them because they are listed as premium only? (which really only has the effect of both more revenue for Seattle, and stretching thin park budgets even thinner).

If you worry about the former, then I hope you worry about the latter, cause some of them are actually real problems here in Chester County, and may end up ruining it for us all, as I have discovered as I've started geocaching. Just be consistent. In all honestly, I can't recall your posts worrying about other wildlife and illegal caches, tho I'll admit I don't read everything around here.

If they give up the geocache then it is gone.

So, if I'm following your logic, the location of the object in question is alleged to be unacceptable. One of the reasons in your argument for it being unacceptable is that someone may observe a seeker seeking it, leading to the questioning of the seeker, and, ultimately, the object's removal. Following this logic to its conclusion leads me to the fridge for another beer. :)

I'm not objecting to the public place (requiring extreme stealth), nor to the wading, nor the (possibly) dangerous climbing in a wet environment. I'm objecting to the combination

So, following your stated reasoning and plain wording, no objection to the (possibly) dangerous climbing, but add in a public place and wading, and we have a toxic stew? Am I reading your plain language correctly, or has the twisted logic your last point an the 'nother beer just fried my brain to much? Can't wait for the two usual suspects to chime in on that one :)

All in good fun. Don't take yourself or tupperware in the woods (or fishing line hung from trees, which I sure is really good for the avian population), too seriously. (Illegally placed caches that 100s of people look for, maybe take that seriously, I dunno, (we've all done it, its just that the scale and hubris with which it is being done now seems a bit much). Bothering the fish once in a while, maybe less so).

So, following your stated reasoning and plain wording, no objection to the (possibly) dangerous climbing, but add in a public place and wading, and we have a toxic stew? Am I reading your plain language correctly

Yes, the first part you've managed to follow. Read the rest again because I don't feel like explaining it again.

No, actually it's not. It doesn't give us the width of the fountain or what it looks like.....where the box actually is. It might be in a spot that is relatively easy to grab from. Or maybe not. It doesn't tell us where it's located inside the restaurant. It could be in an area where the customers just pass through to get to the tables, which means you could probably grab a moment to grab it. It could be anywhere. The width especially would give us a better idea of what this actually entails. There are fountains and then there are fountains.

It also doesn't tell us one very important fact. Do the owners know about the box? If they do that's a whole different situation than if they don't.

Unless the listing gives more information, people would have to play it by ear when they get there. I have no problem with that.

What he said.

To the planter, WHY?

You mean other than to provide fun for those who love to hunt for urban boxes? Gosh... hadn't really though of other reasons I do crazy-ass bold urban hides other than fun.

Ok. I enjoy the challenge of planting a good urban hide. Once again, fun.

Just not fair to plant a box in such a busy place.

Not every box is for every boxer. If you don't think the box is "fair" for whatever reason, PLEASE do not hunt my urban boxes. They will likely stress you out, and my boxes are planted to bring fun and enjoyment to the finder.

If it goes missing, you only have yourself
To blame.

Now, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. You'd be surprised how many finders are unable to figure out how to put the magnet side of the box back on the metal part of the hiding spot.

As far as urban boxes going missing, well... sometimes they do. Many of mine are still there, years later. It's a fun game. :)

GJ

Read the rest again because I don't feel like explaining it again.

I don't have to. Its all right here (quoted in full below (the only part I left off the first time was the silly bit about annoying fish and climbing statues, as if someone really is gonna climb a statue at the risk of personal injury for a hide and seek object). The words speak for themselves --

So, back to the original hide described. I'm not objecting to the public place (requiring extreme stealth), nor to the wading, nor the (possibly) dangerous climbing in a wet environment. I'm objecting to the combination, plus annoying the fish plus climbing a statue.

Nice dodge of the rest of my points, BTW. We'll take that as acceptance that I am right.

Oh, and BTW, thinking more about monofilament (that's a fancy word from my diving days that means, loosely translated -- "don't get tangled in this or you die unless you have a good dive knife and know how to use it", or is otherwise translated as "fishing line"), what are the birds gonna do when they get tangled in this stuff? Want to rage against something, rage against this practice, not goldfish in a pond, or falling statues. Rage against other geocachers using this stuff when the park rules _explicity_ say no fishing line.

I assure you that this has tangled up more birds than falling statues have bothered goldfish ;-)

I do know a local letterboxer who might make a plant like that though.

Dunno about that. I like my boxes to actually be FOUND. :) I'd plant on the statue if you didn't need to wade through the water, though.

GJ

No, actually it's not. It doesn't give us the width of the fountain or what it looks like.

Correct, it doesn't. Kirbert?

Do the owners know about the box? If they do that's a whole different situation than if they don't.

Good point. Kirbert?

Nice dodge of the rest of my points, BTW. We'll take that as acceptance that I am right.

No, I'm not like a politician.

Is bothering fish the new concern in hide and seek games?

Do you worry about bothering deer? Do you worry about bothering birds? Do you worry about bothering other wildlife?

Here's what I actually wrote about the fish:

Second, the restaurant isn't going to appreciate people bothering their goldfish.

I wrote about the restaurant wrote not appreciating bothering the fish, with the assumption that people would be wading in the fountain. I was assuming a wide fountain (See my post asking for details) which we're still waiting for Kirbert to give details about.

I said nothing about bothering wildlife in general. You assumed some words that weren't there. Do you care to admit this, or can I assume your acceptance as you assumed mine. (See your own words above.) We can discuss bothering wildlife and usage of the outdoors in another thread, but I think that we very much agree on this point (that you made up from the quoted line of mine above). And I object to planting where it is prohibited, including the White House.

One of the reasons in your argument for it being unacceptable is that someone may observe a seeker seeking it

I already asked Kirbert for details on if the management knows about this. If they know about it then there is no problem and they would actually approve of the other stuff. But in general, if you hide it so that it MUST be obvious that you are out of place, the box/cache will soon go missing. (We can discuss the ephemeral nature of boxes in another thread.)

But to answer the other question of yours about the "toxic stew", yes. I've asked (in another post) for more details from Kirbert. I've sought geocaches and letterboxes in public places, and it is quite fun being stealthy. I haven't found any that require wading, though I've hidden such a geocache. I've both found and hid geocaches that required climbing, but no letterboxes. It's the combination of all three that I object to. (We're still waiting for details from Kirbert to see if my wading and climbing assumptions are correct, but I'm thinking now that one or both will be incorrect.) And if it requires climbing or wading in such a public (and privately-owned place, unless it explicitly states that they have permission) I'd still say that it should be archived.

Still, as public as Kirbert has described it, I'd probably pass. I've passed on ones that public before, and one was in a city that I'm not likely go to again.

I'd plant on the statue if you didn't need to wade through the water, though.

Considering some of the other places that you've planted, I'm sure that you would. However, unless it is an extremely small stamp or a statue that will easily accommodate a box it won't last long.

However, unless it is an extremely small stamp or a statue that will easily accommodate a box it won't last long.

Boxes that I predict will last a long time sometimes go missing within days. Other boxes I think might disappear quickly end up lasting for years. Two urban boxes I've planted in very public locations, one in 2009 and one in 2010, are still alive and kicking. You never know.

One thing I've learned to predict about the longevity of a box is that you can never predict the longevity of a box. And saying things like

it won't last long

mean no more to me than the weatherman predicting the weather a week from now.

GJ

One thing I've learned to predict about the longevity of a box is that you can never predict longevity of a box. And saying things like

it won't last long

mean no more to me than the weatherman predicting the weather a week from now.

Okay, you've done a lot more daring urban hides that I've done (even in geocaching) so I'll defer to your judgement on this, with one exception: I still don't think that a letterbox 6 feet up (from the ground) on a public statue in a very public place won't last long. Let me put a specific date on this, it won't last more than three months.

There can also be two classes, one with a logbook (for at least 12 1"x1" stamps) hidden with it and one with no log book. You've actually accomplished one of the types of hides I said was impossible. I don't think you can do this one. (Just, please, don't make people climb on the statue to get it.)

we're still waiting for Kirbert to give details about.

No, we're not.

I already asked Kirbert for details on if the management knows about this.

If he's smart (and I think the evidence has shown this to be the case), he'll ignore your request. It is rather beside the point.

Let me explain. No, there is too much... let me sum up:

blah blah hazy details about an interesting though extremely difficult hide blah blah

blah blah much assuming leading to intractable pronouncement of the absolute wrongness of said hide blah blah

blah blah usual suspects chime in with "not all boxes are for all boxers" defense blah blah

blah blah much flailing of words and bandying of fingers, along with posturing, backtracking, and general verbal mayhem among all parties blah blah

blah blah Kirbert! Help! blah blah

Kirbert: "Drizzle drazzle drozzle drone..."

If he's smart (and I think the evidence has shown this to be the case), he'll ignore your request.

Kirbert does seem to be (generally) wiser than the Moose, as evidenced by the Moose's choice of Halloween costumes.

Well, you see,

These message boards are designed so letterboxers can discuss all sorts of subjects and topics while following only the topics of most interest to you.

That "only" part means that anyone not interested in blah, blah, blah is free to use the ignore button.

Signed Just One Of The Little Ole Usual Suspects. :::::batting eyelashes:::::

I've been reading all of these long posts tonight and am kind of amazed that anyone has the energy to write them! Or am I the only person who's crashing after eating too much Halloween candy?? x^o' (<-- That's me, drooling, while in a over-glucosed and semi-conscious state.)

I've been reading all of these long posts tonight and am kind of amazed that anyone has the energy to write them!

Remember, they were written over several hours today. This is much longer than it took you to read them.

Kirbert?

Moi?

I'm just waiting for this thread to die. I haven't actually hunted that geocache, it was just described to me as an example of a challenging hide. FYI, there's also a whole series of "Off Your Rocker" geocaches that are hidden on the front porch of a Cracker Barrel restaurant. They're not only always busy, but there's a bunch of windows across the front of the building so you have no idea who all is watching.

"Drozzle??"

Is that a thing?

J

So, back to the original hide described. I'm not objecting to the public place (requiring extreme stealth), nor to the wading, nor the (possibly) dangerous climbing in a wet environment. I'm objecting to the combination, plus annoying the fish plus climbing a statue.

Well you're a good boxer, Oberon. A good boxer always knows his limitations.

-Dirty Harry Callahan

I'm just waiting for this thread to die. I haven't actually hunted that geocache

You were apparently wise.

FYI, there's also a whole series of "Off Your Rocker" geocaches that are hidden on the front porch of a Cracker Barrel restaurant.

I actually found one of those, "Off Your Rocker near China!" (GCJHB3), on 9 Aug 07. It was a challenge, but I found it without any muggles noticing. I acted like I was waiting for someone while I searched. A technique that works is "looking at my watch". I don't have a watch but people are too far away to tell.

I've found a few of Green Jello's letterboxes by using these stealth techniques. She like the challenging urban hides. There's a challenging hide that I've been considering, but I don't want it to go missing in the first three months. I've still got to come up with a really good way to do it though.

I still don't think that a letterbox 6 feet up (from the ground) on a public statue in a very public place won't last long. Let me put a specific date on this, it won't last more than three months.

Challenge accepted.

You've actually accomplished one of the types of hides I said was impossible. I don't think you can do this one.

What's that saying...? Something along the lines of, "People who say something is impossible should not interrupt those who are doing it".... :)

(Just, please, don't make people climb on the statue to get it.)

Not every box is for every boxer. If you do not feel comfortable climbing on a statue, don't climb a statue. Problem solved.

GJ

What's that saying...? Something along the lines of, "People who say something is impossible should not interrupt those who are doing it".... :)

With the first sentence I was thinking, “The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer.” It is the slogan of the U.S. Army in 1942.

However, there is a long history of similar quotes dating back to Charles Alexandre de Calonne published in 1794.

When the queen asked Calonne for money, he more than once made use of this singular expression: If it is possible, madam, the affair is done; if it is impossible, it shall be done! Appropriate language for a French petit-maitre addressing his mistress, but not for a financier in whose hands was reposed the prosperity of an oppressed people!

Challenge accepted.

Just don't give us a bad reputation. And if I don't feel comfortable finding it then I'll pass.

Just don't give us a bad reputation.

I think geocachers have far more to worry about re: bad reputations than I do with any of the plants I have done.

GJ

I think geocachers have far more to worry about re: bad reputations than I do with any of the plants I have done.

Well, yes. There are more geocachers so naturally there are more possibilities for a bad reputation. But there have also been some letterboxes that have had the bomb squad called on them. I just don't want to regret having given you this particular challenge.

BTW, in another of my posts I left off letterbox hides that requires wading or climbing. I'll have to think about where I can plant such letterboxes. I'm not as bold as you are, planting so many urban boxes, but I'm still thinking about a particular, very public place.

I just don't want to regret having given you this particular challenge.

I've actually planned on planting in this locale for about 4 years now. It's high time I do it.

GJ

http://i.word.com/idictionary/drizzle-drozzle

I won't post the Urban Dictionary link, but they rhyme it with nozzle....