I'm kind of new at this stuff still and have only planted four boxes so far so I would like another point of view on this. Over Thanksgiving weekend I planted three boxes and like any newbie I've been eagerly awaiting for that first email with "I found it". But, as of Friday there had not been any takers yet. We re-visited that area this past weekend and I thought I would just check to see if it was there.

So, around 9:00 p.m. I drove to the spot and yep, it was there and had several log-ins --- all written. They were all geo-cachers. And, they had left trinkets in the box. I took the trinkets out and put the box back. The first log-in was two weeks after my plant. I couldn't stop thinking about it.

So, the next morning around 8:30 a.m. I drove back out to that spot with the intention of putting a note inside that clearly stated this was a letterbox and not for geo-caching but all geo-cachers were welcome to log in. To my surprise I had acquired a geo-cache travel bug overnight. I knew there had to be a geo-cache in the general vicinity so we set about looking for it. Well, we found it -- directly underneath where my box was sitting. I checked the logbook and they planted this cache with my box two weeks after I placed my box there.

I'm not sure if I should be flattered or cheesed about this but after considerable thought I moved my box to a nearby location in the same park. I only did this because I have come across two boxes in the past that appear to have been taken over by geocachers and the stamps have gone MIA.

The world is big enough for both sports and I have participated in both but find I enjoy letterboxing more. Isn't there some general rule that both groups should be following about planting next to one another???

The Celtic Clan

I accidentally hid a letterbox in the same rock (but different crevice) as a geocache. As soon as I found out, I sent the geocacher an email to apologize and let them know that my box was hidden in the same rock as their geocache and offered to move my letterbox. The geocacher had no problem with my letterbox sharing a rock, but I would've moved it if they asked me to do so since they were there first. Both boxes coexisted peacefully for over 2 years until I recently retired the letterbox.

I would say that if the geocacher specifically hid his box in the exact same hidey hole as your letterbox, that was very rude. However, it is possible they didn't realize your letterbox was there. You said that you didn't even notice the geocache yourself at first. So, it could be an honest mistake. I think you were right to move the letterbox for its own safety (so that the stamp doesn't accidentally get traded for a trinket). THere are no formal rules about letterbox/geocache co-habitation or space. However, there are rules about minimum distance between geocaches. Letterboxing does not have a hard rule about this.

Amyrica

OK --- I'm just trying to find a balance with it. But to put things in better perspective the geocache was actually a SKOAL can and was placed after mine was because they took the time to sign in on my logbook the same day they planted their geocache. The trinkets being left would not fit in the geocache.

I think you did a great thing contacting the geocache owner. I just wondered if anyone else had this type of experience and how they handled it and if I did the right thing by moving the box.

I have had a similar situation. I think the problem is that many of us don't participate in both hobbies, so we have no way of knowing if there is a geocache nearby. I wouldn't encroach if I knew they were there, but I often don't know.

In my situation, I planted a box while I was on vacation visiting my father-in-law, on the other side of the country. He was very excited about this new hobby and about maintaining the box for me. He doesn't walk very well, and this box is on a board walk nature trail, that he can manage.

After I got home a fellow boxer sent me a message informing me that the box is in the exact same spot as one of the clues for a multi-stage geocache. I vaguely remember the numbers written on the underside of the bench, but had absolutely no idea that they meant anything! I felt terrible about messing with another's location, and worried about the future of my stamp. I contacted the owner of the geocache and explained the situation. She was nice enough to include information about the letterbox in her geocache listing and invite geocachers to sign into the letterbox. Now everyone is happy...my father-in-law can still maintain the box, geocachers get to see a letterbox and get introduced to our hobby, I get lots of visits to my box, and the owner of the geocache doesn't have people finding my box and thinking that they've completed their search for her cache. Yeah!

Wild Rose (of PBandJ)

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But to put things in better perspective the geocache was actually a SKOAL can

A Skoal can?! No offense, but that must be a regional thing. I've found 750+ caches, but never one in a chewing tobacco can. It's tempting to say you should have CITO'd it.

(CITO: Cache in, TRASH out.)

Well --- I was pretty grossed out but the planters were self-admitted Canadians so we can't claim it was a southern thing! :-)

I was so very tempted . . .

I think that since your box was there first and they knew about it when they placed their cache, they were in the wrong. I think it was very graceful for you to just move your box. Reflects well on letterboxers.

BYW, it's hard for cachers to determine whether there are any letterboxes in an area, but easy for letterboxers to see if there are any caches, because geocaching.com shows a street map for most geocache listings (except mysteries and multistages), with an icon showing the cache location.

It is sad that you had to move your letterbox since you were there first, but I think you made a wise decision. In my experience, geocachers are kind of rude. They are out for the find and the "treasure" they can come away with. I have heard stories of geocachers coming across letterboxes in their quest to find a geocache and have traded out the stamp. One person even said that a geocacher left a note in her box saying they new the stamp was not supposed to be traded but it was so great they were taking it anyway. Now, not all geocachers are rude, but they are the ones that give the hobby a "bad taste in our mouths." I went to a popular mountain peak in my state where there were 5 letterboxes. Almost everyone of them had had geocache activity. There was even a stamp missing in one -- I have no idea if it had been traded out by a geocacher or not, but it is very likely. They signed into the logbooks commenting they were looking for geocaches but couldn't find them and had come across the lbs instead.

The hobbies are going to overlap, because both groups are looking for neat places to deposit their boxes. I just wish more geocachers were more considerate! I placed a letterbox in a park with a geocache. I knew where the geocache was so I hid it in another area. A couple of geocachers have found it and written in the logbook, but so far my stamp has been okay. I make sure to put a bright yellow sticker on each box saying "Official Letterbox" and inside explaining letterboxing (business card - size notes downloadable from AQ) and that the stamp stays with the box.

But people are going to do what they want regardless of what hobby they are in. Geocaching is just like letterboxing in that it is a "non-organized" hobby and people kind of on their own. Some people are very responsible and respectful, others aren't -- in both groups. You just kind of have to evaluate each situation and act on the best interest of your box.

I think this particular individual was rude, but I have personally had nothing but very positive experiences with geocachers (I do both, but mostly letterboxing). As a whole, I have found the cachers in my area to be really fun and very considerate people. A few of my boxes are cross-listed as caches so I get a lot of feedback from the cachers about the hand-carved stamps and just yesterday I had one email asking me how he could learn to carve stamps, too.

Keep in mind that there are inconsiderate letterboxers, too. I've had boxes that were not closed properly or rehid at all well, leading to wet and missing boxes. I've seen historic stone walls totally dismantled by letterboxers looking for a find. I even saw my own girl scout troop, after I had given them a good discussion about ettiquette, put my own box away incorrectly so that muggles could plainly see it, and that was with supervision from my coleaders!

The best way to educate cachers is to cross-list some high quality letterboxes and explain letterboxing in the geocaching.com listing. My latest hybrid says this near the top:

"...There is a hand-carved rubber stamp to mark your logbook - bring your own rubber stamp if you have one to mark the letterbox logbook.

"About letterboxing: This English hobbie originated in 1854 as a means to prove someone had navigated difficult terrain. Unique, hand-carved rubber stamps evolved to provide proof of the find. "

Otherwise, geocachers often think letterboxing is just a cheap copy of geocaching for people who don't have gps receivers. And therefore they would not have much respect for it.

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In my experience, geocachers are kind of rude.

That's a pretty broad statement. I'd be interested in what "your experience" with geocachers is. The only incidents you recount are hearsay - you've "heard stories," and "one person even said..." How many geocachers have you met and talked to on the trail? How many have you attempted to educate about letterboxing?

This is a two-way street, folks. Plenty of geocachers are ignorant of letterboxing. Comments like the one above - and plenty of other antagonistic things I see people here say - demonstrate that plenty of letterboxers are also ignorant of geocaching (and the types of people who participate in that activity). Both are guilty of planting their boxes on top of others. Those of us who do both are far less likely to do that because we know where the caches and boxes in our area are. But in any event, the solution is in education on both sides, and I agree with Trailhead Tessie that one useful approach is to cross-list some boxes so both sides get exposure to the other.

Great Point Tessie! It is very easy for anyone to know exactly where there are geocaches since the geocaching website is free to everyone and you can see their exact locations on a map. I have always found it more difficult to plan my letterbox outings as I can never be quite sure exactly where the box is until I arrive at the spot. Particularly when travelling, it is difficult to know which boxes are nearby where I am going to be.

I DID include one incident from my personal experience:
"I went to a popular mountain peak in my state where there were 5 letterboxes. Almost everyone of them had had geocache activity. "
I also said:
"Some people are very responsible and respectful, others aren't -- in both groups. "
I have come across boxes that were poorly hidden by the placer, which eventually went missing, and have also come across boxes that were poorly rehidden and simply not rehidden at all. One park I went to you could see where someone had went up the hillside in two places looking for the box, and then where the box was it was simply sitting out on top of the hiding spot in plain sight. There are "bad apples" in both groups and those are the ones that always get talked about, which is a pity. As letterboxing gets more notice, I fear the quality of boxes hidden and rehidden will continue to decline.
I have done geocaching and letterboxing. I prefer letterboxing. I have run into more inconsiderate people in the geocaching field, but maybe that is just the area I live in.

As letterboxing gets more notice, I fear the quality of boxes hidden and rehidden will continue to decline.

It's too bad that your area is experiencing a decline in re-hiding quality. In 6 years of geocaching and 5 years of letterboxing, with ever increasing numbers of finders as the years go by, re-hiding techniques around here haven't changed. In my experience the frequency of poor re-hides are about equal for both games - probably around 1 in every 10 visits to either a geocache or letterbox (mine or someone else's) will be re-hidden not quite to my personal standards. On the flip side some of my hides have been re-hidden so well that I couldn't find my own box without a very thorough search (I had no idea that the hollow tree had another hollow cranny deep inside it).

For me, it's all part of the risk of placing a box outdoors in public space. As a hider I always try to remember the wise words of Rick Simpson:

"... we all put a lot of time and energy into our boxes, and we should realize that once you plant a box, you loose control. It's no longer a personal keepsake. It's not on a shelf in your house. Your box takes on a life of it's own. It's constantly interacting with the elements, animals and other boxers. Things can and will go wrong, but things also go wonderfully right most of the time.

The whole LB community is based on a gift of sharing with strangers, which inherently has risk. There is no reward without the risk."

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As letterboxing gets more notice, I fear the quality of boxes hidden and rehidden will continue to decline.

I always rehide as well or better -- sometimes to the point that I wonder if the next hunter will ever find it! This is especially true of geocaches, of course, where you don't know exactly where it's hidden, you're searching a zone of about a 30-foot radius. Sometimes I search for quite a while and then, when I'm about to give up, happen to spot a corner of the box showing -- and then of course rehide so the corner of the box is NOT showing.

With either letterboxes or geocaches, I try to think about how I would like it hidden if I were the placer -- not how it was when I found it. The Suspicious Pile Of Leaves or Pine Needles is always subject to deterioration; if the box is partially hidden by leaves or pine needles, I figure the planter wanted it completely hidden by leaves or pine needles, some of them had just blown off or whatever.

Not to sound legalistic or anything, but I think in this hobby (and anything else), it is important to remember the Golden Rule: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. It is always appropriate to replace the contents in a box and/or leave a box better than you found it. People spend much time and effort to plant boxes, and we should respect that. ~daisyflower

...geocachers often think letterboxing is just a cheap copy of geocaching for people who don't have gps receivers.

As a geocacher I knew that letterboxing pre-dated geocaching (and therefore couldn't be a copy of letterboxing). I also know that the "inventor" of geocaching did not know about letterboxing (so many people think geocaching is a knock-off of letterboxing, if anything it's more like a knock-off of the pirate-treasure-hunt game). I have always thought of letterboxing as the more artistic of the 2 games. Geocaching on the other hand isn't particularly artistic but it can be very creative - the ideas and containers that some people come up with to hide their treasures can be quite fun and ingenious.

pre-dated geocaching (and therefore couldn't be a copy of letterboxing)

Oops, I mean (and therefore couldn't be a copy of geocaching)

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As a geocacher I knew that letterboxing pre-dated geocaching...

A considerable proportion of geocachers don't know that letterboxing exists. Hence, when they find a letterbox while hunting a geocache, they believe they've found the geocache -- it has never occurred to them that there are other stashing games out there. And, since many geocachers are all about how many they can find per day, they hurry up and sign, trade, and dash, without reading any of the notes or labels. Your stamp is gone, there's some McDonald's toy in your letterbox in its place, and they have no idea what they've done.

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"I went to a popular mountain peak in my state where there were 5 letterboxes. Almost everyone of them had had geocache activity. "

I don't think that's an example of how "geocachers are rude." I think it just shows that many geocachers simply don't know what the deal is with letterboxing. The solution, in my opinion, is education, not name-calling and an adversarial attitude.

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Does this mean that when GPS receivers are a dime a dozen that the geocaching fad will fall by the wayside?
Hmmmm.

I don't think it's a fad. Many active cachers have been at it for over 7 years. For me, I may not do it as often as I once did, but I also don't see getting tired of being taken to great places I haven't seen before. That's what caching is about for me (frankly, I get much more of that out of caching than boxing), and I think for a lot of people. Even if the world is filled with crappy urban micro caches, there will still be caches to find out in the wilds.

Actually, the only thing that I think will stop geocaching would also stop letterboxing: Bans on public lands. So, what makes more sense: Boxers and cachers learning to understand and work with each other for the protection of both activities, or juvenile sniping?

So, what makes more sense: Boxers and cachers learning to understand and work with each other for the protection of both activities, or juvenile sniping?

We vote for the sniping!

Oops, just kiddin... We fully agree that cooperation is best but couldn't pass up a good opportunity to lighten things with a laugh.

Key Note Sneakers *who, perish the thought, is considering a GPS*

I couldn't agree more with Kirbert who says

I always rehide as well or better -- sometimes to the point that I wonder if the next hunter will ever find it!

When I was letterboxing with my sister (who does both, but not as much of both as I do of LB) she commented that the next person might never find the letterbox, because I had hidden it so well! (the next one could find the LB if they followed the clues like we had!) Just when we got there it really looked like trash on the edge of a well mowed grassy park near the tall grasses and brush! After I hid it, a passerby would have no idea at all that there was anything but natural materials there! (just as the box clues indicated!)

six stars