This discussion was started in a log for a geocache "hybrid" by tigquilt. I'll copy a bunch of it here to bring everyone up to speed:

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(from Kirbert) BTW, while this cache -- and others in the Dinos series -- claims to be a hybrid, I could find no listing on either letterboxing.org or atlasquest.com. It's not a hybrid if it's not listed as a letterbox with suitable clues for finding; it's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

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(from Too Tall John) Not all letterboxes are listed by any listing service at all, and are only found by word of mouth, so saying they must be listed somewhere is incorrect. Also, if you read the Geocaching.com guidelines, you will find that the use of a GPS is explicitly required to be listed here, while no mention of "suitable clues for finding" is made at all. Tigquit, your letterbox series is not only ok, it is appreciated!

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(K) I'm sorry, but geocaching.com is not the authority on what is or is not a letterbox. I just think people here should know that. If it cannot be found without a GPSr, it's not a letterbox, and putting a stamp in the cache doesn't make it one. Tigquilt, I'm sure your series is appreciated by geocachers, but it does nothing for letterboxers -- they don't know it exists. Might as well have just left the stamp out and called it a regular geocache.

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(TTJ, via direct e-mail) Sorry, but tigquilt's cache page isn't the place to continue this discussion...

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(K) Agreed. Let's continue it on the Geocaching board at atlasquest.com. See you there!

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(TTJ) My point was that not all letterboxes can be found on LBNA's website, or on any of the many other letterboxing sites. They are still a letterbox, though.

True enough. But there's one thing that all letterboxes have in common: they all provide clues to finding the box. Some list the clues on letterboxing.org, some list the clues on atlasquest.com, some list the clues on their own web pages, some provide the clues by word of mouth only -- but they all provide clues. If you just stick a stamp in a geocache and list it as a "hybrid" on geocaching.com, you're not providing any clues. It's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

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Also you said: "If it cannot be found without a GPSr, it's not a letterbox, and putting a stamp in the cache doesn't make it one."

Again, from LBNA's site (http://www.letterboxing.org/faq/faq.html#001): "Often the clues involve map coordinates or compass bearings from landmarks, but they don't have to." What's that? Coordinates? Sounds like a GPSr may be handy to me...

"Involving map coordinates" and "requiring a GPS receiver" are not the same thing. A GPS receiver being handy is not the same thing as a GPS receiver being required. I myself have a letterbox listed involving coordinates, but they're only used to locate a dot on a MapQuest map. Once a letterboxer uses the map to get to the general area, they then follow specific written clues to find the box. With many -- arguably most -- geocaches, there is no practical way to find the cache without a GPS receiver. A GPS receiver is, for all intents and purposes, required equipment.

My point in making the comment in the geocache log is that geocachers seem to be under the mistaken impression that they can just toss a stamp in the cache and list it as a "hybrid" and letterboxers will come flocking. They will not; they won't know your cache exists, and if they did they wouldn't know how to find it. The original intention of the "hybrid" listing was to provide for placing a single box and inviting both geocachers and letterboxers to come find it. If you list it only on geocaching.com and don't provide any instructions on how to find it without a GPS receiver, you have not achieved that intention. It's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

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The original intention of the "hybrid" listing was to provide for placing a single box and inviting both geocachers and letterboxers to come find it. If you list it only on geocaching.com and don't provide any instructions on how to find it without a GPS receiver, you have not achieved that intention. It's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

Do you think that the difference in the two hobbies almost prohibits hybrids? A geocache isn't really a geocache unless you use a GPSr to find it. A letterbox requires clues. Some of the original letterbox hybrids (at least the ones on lbna) just used coordinates. But that was before geocaching became the force that it is today.

TeamKing had a nice micro hybrid called Black Horse Ranch here (in Houston) that seemed to satisfy both groups. But she is both a geocacher and a letterboxer, so she understands both hobbies. And maybe that's what it takes.

I'd like to see more hybrids, if only to better educate geocachers about letterboxing. Even if it is just a geocache with a stamp, people learn NOT TO TAKE THE STAMP. And in my book, that's a good thing. One of my oldest mystery boxes (a really easy one), has been converted to a geocache sometime in the last 4 months, with the stamp long gone. I can't decide whether to try again or just cede the location to the geocache.

Then I have another mystery box (a hard one) that is very near a geocache and they have happily co-existed for quite some time. Several geocachers have joined AQ just to log that find, but they never really seem to get the bug. I tell the geocacher/finders that there are a lot of letterboxers who would be jealous of their accidental find.

dewberry

My point in making the comment in the geocache log is that geocachers seem to be under the mistaken impression that they can just toss a stamp in the cache and list it as a "hybrid" and letterboxers will come flocking.

Perhaps they don't expect or want letterboxers to come flocking. Perhaps their target is more narrow than that. People with WOM boxes and/or F-count restrictions have a more narrow target.

They will not

Will too.

will not

will too

(just playing) ;-)

they won't know your cache exists, and if they did they wouldn't know how to find it. The original intention of the "hybrid" listing was to provide for placing a single box and inviting both geocachers and letterboxers to come find it. If you list it only on geocaching.com and don't provide any instructions on how to find it without a GPS receiver, you have not achieved that intention.

If they are trying to attract geocachers who are also letterboxers (i.e. both/and as opposed to either/or), and their targeted visitors are those people, then they've hit the target. If they consider the listing on geocaching.com to be the clue — it's no less available than a WOM box — then it should qualify for a letterbox. Why can't a clue include using a GPS receiver? Some clues require scuba diving equipment. We'll eventually have a clue that requires a canoe. Who made these rules?

It's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

It has a stamp. It has a container. It has clues by a broader definition. You, a letterboxer, can find the clues. Any letterboxer can get on geocaching.com and find the clues. Looks like a letterbox . . . smells like a letterbox . . .

Mama Cache

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Do you think that the difference in the two hobbies almost prohibits hybrids?

No, I don't. It's easy enough to provide GPS coords on geocaching.com and clues on LbNA and AQ to the same box.

OK, I'll admit that I did not read all of the content in this thread as the messages are very long and I simply wanted to add a comment.

There is a geochacher-turned-geo-letterboxer in my extended area and the problem is that some geocachers have taken the stamp as their trophy. So, then when we boxers find it (not always having been identified in the clues as a cache-combo) we have the box, the stuff, the logbook, but no stamp.

If I see a box is a combo-cache, I will not go looking for it.

Thought I'd share.

~Perdu

We personally do not like the hybrids. Not to offend anyone, but our personal experiences with finding these boxes have not been favorable. The first one we found, we thought this was neat and a great way to combine the two hobbies. We gave it Kudos!
But since then, other combined boxes that we have found have needed much attention. We have had to take everything out of the boxes on several occassions just to separate the geocache from the letterbox. We have found boxes with letterbox logbooks completely full from geocachers. A couple were missing the logbooks. And worse by far one was missing the stamp. We are thinking that regular maintenance is the key here!!
There is a guy in our area that does all of his boxes this way. And we have decided that the hybrid boxes aren't really worth hunting for us.
Just our two cents.
Outdoor Girls

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Also, if you read the Geocaching.com guidelines, you will find that the use of a GPS is explicitly required to be listed here, while no mention of "suitable clues for finding" is made at all.

I rescently gave a demonstration on letterboxing at a geo-cache gathering. There was a lot of discussion on the topic of hybrid boxes. The ideas expressed here were some of the same ideas expressed there. As I came away from the gathering, I was under the impression that a GPSr is used to give coordinates to the precise location (within 4-6 feet), and a written clue gives a discription to the precise location (whether or not a compass reading or a map is involved is beside the point). The way I understood it relating to a hybrid was that the GPSr coordinates didn't necessarily have to indicate the location of the box. It could merely lead you to the start of the trailhead, or to a landmark indicating the written clue starting point. That way there is a GPSr coordinate involved which constitutes it as a GC, a written clue involved which constitutes it as a LB, and both LBers and GCers could enjoy the find. If the starting location is not in the written clue it would be next to impossible to find without WOM involvment. If the written location was not listed with the GPS instructions, then once again WOM involvment is essential. Either way, listing it on both LB, and GC websites could clear up a bunch of confussion.

(from Kirbert) If it cannot be found without a GPSr, it's not a letterbox, and putting a stamp in the cache doesn't make it one.

This just plain isn't true. Needing to use a GPSr to find a location can be defined as a clue. As far as other clues go, most geocaches require clues as well, as a GPSr is at best accurate to 19 feet. If the placer's coords are off by that much, and the searcher's GPSr are off by that much, a clue is sometimes very necessary, as the potential search area (under optimal conditions) is still over 4500 sq. feet. (pi*(19+19)^2)

(K) Tigquilt, I'm sure your series is appreciated by geocachers, but it does nothing for letterboxers -- they don't know it exists.

There are lots of LBs that aren't listed on any organized listing service, but are still defined as letterboxes. The LB/GC hybrids just happen to be listed on geocaching.com. By your definition (of needing to be listed somewhere) the hybrids actually qualify more as a letterbox than ones that strictly rely on word of mouth. I'm not saying that they are any more of one, but simply pointing out the fallacy in your requirement of being listed.

I like the way Mama Cache put it:

...If they consider the listing on geocaching.com to be the clue — it's no less available than a WOM box — then it should qualify for a letterbox. Why can't a clue include using a GPS receiver? Some clues require scuba diving equipment. We'll eventually have a clue that requires a canoe. Who made these rules?
...It has a stamp. It has a container. It has clues by a broader definition. You, a letterboxer, can find the clues. Any letterboxer can get on geocaching.com and find the clues. Looks like a letterbox . . . smells like a letterbox . . .

... must be a letterbox!

Too Tall John

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We have had to take everything out of the boxes on several occassions just to separate the geocache from the letterbox. We have found boxes with letterbox logbooks completely full from geocachers. A couple were missing the logbooks. And worse by far one was missing the stamp. We are thinking that regular maintenance is the key here!!

The nice thing about the geocaching site is you can post a "needs maintenance" note and describe in your log what the problem with the box is. This should get the attention of the box owner and gives a heads-up to future finders. If the stamp is missing you can let others know by posting a log. Another finder might decide to skip the box if what they are after is the stamp image. There's even a "should be archived" log you can post if there's a big problem with the box and the owner is not responding. The "should be archived" log gets the attention of the local reviewer, who will do a follow-up and archive the box if it is abandoned.

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I recently gave a demonstration on letterboxing at a geo-cache gathering.

I'm thinking seriously about demo'ing letterboxing at our local annual geocaching gathering. Did you demonstrate how to carve a stamp? If so would you mind sharing what tools you brought to the gathering and whether you let other people carve a stamp? Did anyone get hurt i.e. cut themselves with the tools? That's my one big concern. I'm considering not having others carve their own just to avoid injury, or should I bring along some antiseptic and bandaids? Also, did you plant a letterbox at the gathering?

Lone R

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As I came away from the gathering, I was under the impression that a GPSr is used to give coordinates to the precise location (within 4-6 feet), and a written clue gives a discription to the precise location (whether or not a compass reading or a map is involved is beside the point). The way I understood it relating to a hybrid was that the GPSr coordinates didn't necessarily have to indicate the location of the box. It could merely lead you to the start of the trailhead, or to a landmark indicating the written clue starting point. That way there is a GPSr coordinate involved which constitutes it as a GC, a written clue involved which constitutes it as a LB, and both LBers and GCers could enjoy the find.

Agreed. The problems are:

1) Most geocachers don't seem to understand this at all. There are no written clues provided, period. The only way to find their "hybrid" is by entering the coords into a GPS receiver.

2) Geocaching.com has apparently established a policy banning letterbox-style clues. I dunno the exact wording, but reportedly they now insist that geocaches must not be findable without a GPS receiver.

Perhaps the solution lies in clarification. That's why I've been pointing out to owners of hybrids that they need to post written clues on LbNA or AQ if they actually expect letterboxers to find and appreciate their hides. I don't believe it's animosity or even negligence on their part; they simply have no idea that they need to do something besides select "hybrid" under cache type.

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It's just a geocache with a stamp in it.

It has a stamp. It has a container. It has clues by a broader definition. You, a letterboxer, can find the clues. Any letterboxer can get on geocaching.com and find the clues. Looks like a letterbox . . . smells like a letterbox . . .

Spoken like a lawyer. If we were to carefully dissect the definitions, I suspect we'd decide that geocaches -- all of them, not just hybrids -- are a specific type of letterbox. But that's not my point. My point is pragmatic, not pedantic. Mama Cache, when was the last time you checked geocaching.com for hybrids in an area before you went on a letterbox hunt?

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The LB/GC hybrids just happen to be listed on geocaching.com.

Where no letterboxer will ever find them. Might as well leave the stamp out and call it a regular cache.

No, I didn't demo stamp carving. I did bring along some pre-carved stamps and showed an uncarved piece of pink, a piece of foam, and a small piecce of luan, which I always mount on. It was simply to give a demonstration of how to. I was invited back to their next meeting to demonstrate stamp carving. Their most frequent question was how do you carve a specific item, or can you carve anything you want? My answer was if you can draw it and transfer it to the rubber successfully, it could be carved. As far as demonstrating actual carving, I am going to let them try, at least the ones who will sign a release form not holding me responsible. It would most likely be wise to have some Bactine, Neosporin, and some bandaides.

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The LB/GC hybrids just happen to be listed on geocaching.com.

Where no letterboxer will ever find them...

You found them, other letterboxers have found them, or didn't you read the logbook? Oh, yeah, you didn't even actually find the one that started this whole discussion! The fact is, letterboxers have access to these listings, they just need to go to geocaching.com to find them, which they have done, and will continue to do, despite your claims that they are lost to the letterboxing world.

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The LB/GC hybrids just happen to be listed on geocaching.com.

Where no letterboxer will ever find them...

You found them, other letterboxers have found them, or didn't you read the logbook? Oh, yeah, you didn't even actually find the one that started this whole discussion! The fact is, letterboxers have access to these listings, they just need to go to geocaching.com to find them, which they have done, and will continue to do, despite your claims that they are lost to the letterboxing world.

Why is there so much resistance and argument to the simple suggestion to list your @#$%^&* hybrid on a letterboxing site? I guarantee you'll get at least 30 times as many visits from letterboxers! And isn't that the reason you placed a hybrid in the first place?

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Why is there so much resistance and argument to the simple suggestion to list your @#$%^&* hybrid on a letterboxing site? I guarantee you'll get at least 30 times as many visits from letterboxers!

No argument there. But at the same time, I don't think it HAS to be listed on a letterboxing site to be called a hybrid, either.

DebBee

Interesting thread... both here AND on forums.groundspeak.com.

I'll admit up front that I don't own a GPS, and have no plans to get one anytime soon. I've been intrigued by the "treasure hunt" aspects of geocaching every time I have heard about it... and the fact that I don't need a GPS is one of the reasons I have gotten involved with letterboxing.

To me, the requirement (or lack of requirement) for a GPS unit is the biggest defining difference between the two hobbies. And as far as I can tell, the letterboxing community would probably accept GPS coordinates as another form of clue. But can I take GPS coordinates to TopoZone, or to a printed map, and get a reference point close enough to find the box? In other words, are there ANY geocaches that I can find without using a GPS?

The groundspeak thread does makes mention of a "hybrid" being rejected because it was possible to finding WITHOUT a GPS. So, to me, the real question becomes: will the geocaching community accept boxes that don't require the use of a GPS?

Without that acceptance, I really don't think that you can have a true "hybrid". If a geocache must by definition require the use of a GPS, and I don't have a GPS, there would be no point for me in looking on a geocache site for clues. And I don't think there would be much point for GPS owners in looking on a general letterboxing site, when an effective specialized site is already available.

A square is always a rectangle, but all rectangles are not square. And if finding a particular box REQUIRES a GPS, I think you are dealing with the same kind of relationship.

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Why is there so much resistance and argument to the simple suggestion to list your @#$%^&* hybrid on a letterboxing site?

I think my real issue is with your (publicly readable) logs criticizing tigquilt's efforts to place something enjoyable by both geocachers and letterboxers:

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...while this cache -- and others in the Dinos series -- claims to be a hybrid, I could find no listing on either letterboxing.org or atlasquest.com. It's not a hybrid if it's not listed as a letterbox with suitable clues for finding; it's just a geocache with a stamp in it... I'm sorry, but geocaching.com is not the authority on what is or is not a letterbox. I just think people here should know that. If it cannot be found without a GPSr, it's not a letterbox, and putting a stamp in the cache doesn't make it one. Tigquilt, I'm sure your series is appreciated by geocachers, but it does nothing for letterboxers -- they don't know it exists. Might as well have just left the stamp out and called it a regular geocache.

(I've underlined the parts I take issue with...)
Your "simple suggestion" reads more like a rant, not to mention your facts aren't quite true. Not to mention you never actually suggest she do anything, just tell her that it is wrong.

But can I take GPS coordinates to TopoZone, or to a printed map, and get a reference point close enough to find the box? In other words, are there ANY geocaches that I can find without using a GPS?

Actually, I found my 1st 3 geocaches without a GPSr. Google Maps got me to where I could use the provided hints. There are people on geocaching.com who have hundreds of finds w/out a GPSr. I think the line for approval is probably drawn around whether a cache is designed to be found with or without the use of a GPSr. Of course, I'm not a cache reviewer, so I can't say that for sure.

To answer your question in one word:

Yes.

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Your "simple suggestion" reads more like a rant

I had a similar reaction, especially to some of the later parts of the thread. I just have a "bad habit" of separating the message from the delivery, and I was still curious about the geocaching practices. [And also have my own opinionated streak... 8)) ]

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Actually, I found my 1st 3 geocaches without a GPSr.

Thank you... I'll keep looking and try a few. I have found some where I know I can get close, but sitting at the desk the clues didn't seem like they would narrow it down without the receiver.

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I think the line for approval is probably drawn around whether a cache is designed to be found with or without the use of a GPSr. Of course, I'm not a cache reviewer, so I can't say that for sure.

That makes sense to me... I was looking for, but could not find, specific guidelines on geocaching.com to say what the reviewers would look for. And the description of geocaching on the home page gives me the same general impression.

But I really like the diversity in letterboxing, with a lot of different 'boxers approaching the hobby in a lot of different ways. It generally doesn't seem to be an issue if someone wants to try a "hybrid" where a GPS can be used, if they want to list or not list, if they want to write simple clues or use a cryptogram, code, or puzzle. Just the existence of designated "cache reviewers" makes me suspect that geocaching is a bit more formally defined, a bit less casually freeform... and if that is the case I'll stay here, thank you.

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But I really like the diversity in letterboxing, with a lot of different 'boxers approaching the hobby in a lot of different ways. It generally doesn't seem to be an issue if someone wants to try a "hybrid" where a GPS can be used, if they want to list or not list, if they want to write simple clues or use a cryptogram, code, or puzzle. Just the existence of designated "cache reviewers" makes me suspect that geocaching is a bit more formally defined, a bit less casually freeform... and if that is the case I'll stay here, thank you.

Don't let the existence of reviewers fool you. Geocaching is a very diverse game with many people hiding many different styles of caches. Puzzles (including cryptograms), multi stage caches (one of mine has a tricky enough camo job Kirbert can't find it), letterbox hybrids (letterbox? what's that? (:< ), Earthcaches (a joint project with the Natn'l Geological Soc.), and more. The reviewer basically makes sure that rules in place to ensure everyone has a fun & safe time (like no placing on private property w/out permission) are enforced.

Check out a few caches in your local area. Make sure the ones you attempt have a decent hint (a few cachers will use the "hint" section to tell you where to park!). You'll find them and say "Why, that was fun!" I don't know how many letterboxes there are in your area, but I bet there's a bunch of geocaches you could do "naked" (w/out a GPSr). While I'm pretty sure "Once a Letterboxer always a Letterboxer" would be accurate, you might find geocaching is another hobby that fits together nicely with it.

Happy Trails!

TTJ

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Your "simple suggestion" reads more like a rant, not to mention your facts aren't quite true. Not to mention you never actually suggest she do anything, just tell her that it is wrong.

Gee, I thought I made it perfectly clear that she needed to list that hybrid on a letterboxing site for letterboxers to find it.

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Gee, I thought I made it perfectly clear that she needed to list that hybrid on a letterboxing site for letterboxers to find it.

Thank you for the perfect example of one of the things you were wrong about.

Yes you can find a geocache without a gps.
At the bottom of each cache page on Geocaching.com is 10 links to different mapping sites, I use the 'Geocaching.com Google Map' link it and worked for me untill I was able to get a gps.
You get a feel after a while of where I cache could/would be hidden. I am sure anyone with any experience in letterboxing would have an advantage at 'naked' caching over someone like myself who had not tried either activity before I went out hunting for geocaches without a gps so if I can do it with two preschoolers in tow I am sure anyone else who realy wants to find that cache with (sometimes) hand carved stamp in it would be able to.

Seeing as listing a letterbox on the internet is optional why should it matter which internet site it is on. Some people place hybrid to introduce the caching community to letterboxing not necessarily for letterboxers to find. If you live in an area with limited letterboxes you take what you can get as to how you come across the clues it matters little.

I wonder if the ones who get most upset about geocache letterbox hybrids are the ones with lots of letterboxes nearby to choice from. If you don't like them don't hunt them.

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You get a feel after a while of where I cache could/would be hidden.

That's called "geomojo". I recently discovered that a well-developed sense of geomojo in Florida doesn't really help all that much in New Hampshire, you have to relearn from scratch. The hides are a bit different because the terrain is different and the locals develop hiding styles that work well in their area.

True, sometimes you don't have to travel far to encounter this problem/challenge.
There is one about two hours north of where I live which is hard to find. It is in a rest area next to a main road. It is hard because you don't know what you are looking for. One reason I like geocaching is I can read other peoples opinion on a hide especialy ones I can't find. On this particular one someone wrote 'easy find as I have found one hidden the same way before' so then I left thinking maybe I was looking straight at it and didn't see it! Then there is one about 1/2 an hour drive south of me where I know exactly where it is but still can't find it. Well not exactly but close enough it is in a pile of rocks that have been cleared off a field now in a rest area. The page says you don't have to move all the rocks and that you should be able to see it and yet there are still numerous logs stating how many times they have had to visit to find it!

From what I have heard there are lots more letterboxes in America than here and some really well carved stamps I hope to get over there at some stage to see/find some. As much as I enjoy geocaching I think they would be so much better if there was a hand carved stamp in the box.

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It has a stamp. It has a container. It has clues by a broader definition. You, a letterboxer, can find the clues. Any letterboxer can get on geocaching.com and find the clues. Looks like a letterbox . . . smells like a letterbox . . .

But its got all this other STUFF/JUNK in it, can't be a LB?!?!?

Hard enough to keep track of AQ & LBNA, Im not going to start checking a third site for clues, (granted I have gone to personal sites for clues--KNOWING I was getting a LB).