Dixie, it's not going to happen. Inactive and missing are the same thing in my book and I'm not going to add two options that mean exactly the same thing! ;o)

But you all have provided two decent replacement names for missing: inactive and unavailable. And I'm willing to switch it, but which one? It doesn't seem that one is any better than the other so I'm having a tough time deciding which I should change it to. What do you all prefer?

As for changing the 'retired' option--I don't think that one causes much confusion so I'll leave it as is for now. The problem term seems to be 'missing' so I'll see if changing it to inactive or unavailable is less confusing for people. But which?

-- Ryan

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The problem term seems to be 'missing' so I'll see if changing it to inactive or unavailable is less confusing for people. But which?

My 2 cents... I would prefer that it be left alone. I only like Inactive or unavailable as an additional option. Otherwise I think Missing fits the bill more frequently and is more descriptive =o)

Rhea

I do agree that further explanation in the clues would be an obvious solution to whichever term is used . . . however . . .

"Missing" seems to have connotations that something has happened to the box. And, by the multitude of responses, that particular word seems to be the most confusing.

"Inactive" would suggest that the box isn't there and that it will likely be replaced/replanted/returned. It has a more temporary sound to it.

If I were choosing a name, I'd use "inactive."

MC

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why can't GT just add Unavailable as a 4th box option?

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it's not going to happen. Inactive and missing are the same thing in my book and I'm not going to add two options that mean exactly the same thing! ;o)

I understand you feel that way and that's cool...I just still see it the other way.
if an item is missing it usually means exactly what it says and that it would be good to keep an eye out for it... but even if you will never use both...I do certainly feel that inactive is a better option and encompasses more posibilities than just missing.

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I only like Inactive or unavailable as an additional option.

i too feel this is the logical choice but again, I think it's better than just missing.
i have said it a million times in my own noggin...missing is missing! period no matter if you are a finder or a planter. *shrugs*

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ACTIVE - box appears to be alive and well
UNKNOWN - box is reported as missing, but planter has not confirmed status
INACTIVE - box is not in spot, planter has confirmed status and intends to return it or to replant it
RETIRED - box is not in spot and will not be replaced

this is essentially the same thing I have thought is best except it takes away the missing.
maybe this is the answer we all can enjoy?? still not perfect cause if you know for certain it is missing then it's not really unknown but it is far better than not having the inactive status

dixie
who was just reading that post i made long ago about this topic...
also remembering how mad I was about the destroyed LB that prompted my discussion
whew!!

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The problem term seems to be 'missing' so I'll see if changing it to inactive or unavailable is less confusing for people. But which?

Sounds like a perfect canidate for the AQ vote section we used once a while back!!!

chadams

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Sounds like a perfect canidate for the AQ vote section we used once a while back!!!

I'm actually not very fond of that vote section, to tell you the truth. =) I'm trying to make decisions based on facts, carefully considering WHY people want something the way they do. The vote tells me how many people want what, but it's not open for discussions or debate. I want to hear the story behind the vote. The vote itself doesn't really matter much. I'll go with whatever side makes the best, logical case for themselves. =)

And if neither side can do that, I might have to flip a coin. ;o)

-- Ryan

Well, I'll drop my two cents in FWITW.

I have a series of three in which one box is "missing"--according to Dixie's definition, I ain't got no freakin' idea what happened to it, but it's gone. A second box that was in SC is marked "missing" but the stamp is sitting on my bookcase waiting to be replanted with a new logbook when I get the chance.

The first box will probably not be replaced, but I'm not willing to retire it yet; it was one of my first plants. The second is in more of an "unavailable" condition than missing.

Since these cases aren't really comparing apples to apples, I guess I'd prefer having "inactive". That would still leave me with my quandary about my truly "missing" box because it is not "inactive" since it will take me a lot more work to make it active again.

Anyhoo, I like the idea of "inactive" but I sure wish it could be an addition to the list instead of a replacement for "missing".

Knit Wit

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I want to hear the story behind the vote. The vote itself doesn't really matter much. I'll go with whatever side makes the best, logical case for themselves. =)

Okay since your asking and all 9-)

I like the

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ACTIVE - box appears to be alive and well
UNKNOWN - box is reported as missing, but planter has not confirmed status
INACTIVE - box is not in spot, planter has confirmed status and intends to return it or to replant it
RETIRED - box is not in spot and will not be replaced

But I would say

INACTIVE

should just mean box is not in it's spot and the owner knows it

If you want to add anything else put it in your clues. And like was stated earlier, if you have clues on both sites, please update in both places. I usually only use AQ, just like it much better, but I log finds on both sites cause there are some clues that aren't here.

Just my .02 cents

Thanks

Trish:)

I don't see a need to change anything.

Missing means it isn't there and if the potential finder goes to look for it THEY WON'T FIND IT. If I pull my letterbox, it's missing. If a raccoon eats it, it's missing.
See missing at Dictionary.com

When I opt to select "missing" for one of my letterboxes, I do so with the intent to informing people that they shouldn't bother looking for it. Find-ability is the big issue, not whether or not it will be replaced. I don't want people to look for my letterbox and be disappointed. That would turn some people off. So I want to be very CLEAR that they CAN NOT find certain boxes.

The letterboxes riding around in the trunks of cars are MISSING from the place their clues imply. They are missing to me, because I can't find them. They might not be missing to the planter, but they already know all they need to know about it.

And if it isn't retired, then it might come back. But it isn't back now. It's MISSING.

~Missing~
That's my vote.
:)
-QP

I have read through the whole thread, and I know it's kind of backtracking to answer here, but let me see if maybe I can pose this is a different way. I'm not necessarily trying to change anyone's mind.

Sometimes, as a planter, I use the missing function on a box that may or may not be there. If I have been getting reports that say: "hey, I've been looking, but I can't find it" and the reports are from very experienced boxers and are consistant, then I might go ahead and mark the box as missing. To me, it's a message of 'box at your own risk. Box may or may not be in place.' This can be particularly true for older boxes. I know I"m not the only boxer who does this, since I actually learned this from someone else. And, at times, BOTH of us have found boxes that were listed as 'missing'. No it's not a large number, but it DOES happen. Perhaps the planter/owner (and I) should have used "unknown" in that instance and referenced the clues as such. But, for whatever reason, they used missing.

I have gone for boxes listed as ACTIVE, known I've had the correct spot, only to find out the box was pulled for maintance a few weeks before and was going to be returned the day after I was there.

Now, as a PLANTER, I personally have a box in my possession, in my house, that was pulled from the wild and I haven't been able to replant in its original and future spot. There's nothing "wrong" with the box when it was pulled, and it's fine now. Circumstances led to it being pulled (thanks Christmas Parade). TECHNICALLY, it's an active box, because if someone came throught town, said "let's meet and exchange, and oh, by the way, could you bring box X", I would. However, it's not exactly 'missing' either. Yes, I've noted all this in the clue and all that jazz. I hesitate to list it as missing though, because these boxes also don't show on the default searches. MOST people tend to use the defaults and never look any further. I'm not talking about those of us who practically live here, but the causal/average user, who probably outnumbers us very active ones 2 to 1.

Would I use a pull down function that noted that I have the box pulled for maintance and it should be returned in the foreseeable future? Yes. Missing says, It may be gone, and if it is, I'll replace it when I get around to it. And, as a boxer a Maintenance type note might let me know to watch a box in the next couple of days or weeks as opposed to whenever the planter gets around to it. It might also encourage people to ASK after the box as well...to see if it will be in place by the time they get to an area to box.

Like I said, I don't expect to change minds, but these are just some thoughts/experiences that lead me to lean towards suggesting a maintenance type word being added.

Jenni P McD

I think that most boxers, both finders and planters have two categories in their minds for when the box is not in its hidey-hole. one category is that nobody has a clue where the box actually is, which is an alarming prospect; and the other category is that the owner is in possession of the box for a myriad of reasons, but it is in safe hands and therefore nobody should get alarmed. The problem is that we are debating over a single word fitting both categories. no single word will fit both categories.

"missing" seems to be the term preferred for describing a box that is truly gone, where nobody knows where it may or may not be.

"inactive" is a better word for describing a box that is in the owner's possession for whatever reason and will be returned shortly. Marking a box "inactive" would be similar to leaving a card in the box's place that says to the effect, "I have the box, it isn't gone, it will be back soon" which some boxers are beginning to leave, especially during gatherings.

I do not see why we can't have one additional word on the drop-down menu that would serve to make this distinction in the finder's minds. If, for example, I was planning a trip, I would only bring clues for boxes not marked missing. However, I would be really mad to find out later that one which had been "missing" was in fact replaced the day before I arrived. If the box was marked "unavailable" I would be sure to check it again just before I left to see if it had become available.

The difference between "missing" and "unavailable" is that missing has more of a finality about it, while unavailable tends to suggest that the box is only out of place temporarily. Additionally, as a planter, it is a lot easier to change the status of the box than it is to edit the clues.

night writer's two cents and logical discussion.

I'm going to echo Knit Wit and Dixie some.

"Missing" to me, says that the planter has no earthly idea where the box is. That doesn't fly when I have pulled a box for maintenance or it is waiting in the wings for an event. In each of those circumstances, I'd prefer "inactive," because I, as planter, know exactly where the box is and it is unavailable to finders at present, but will be available to finders in the near future. However, I would still like to have "missing" as an option, as "missing" demonstrate that for the forseeable future, finders should not look for that box or tag it to track any changes in its status. If "inactive" were availabe as an option, I would probably tag "inactive" boxes to keep an eye on status and hunt them when they became "active," especially if the boxes are local.

Both "missing" and "inactive" are viable options that can be beneficial to nit-picky record keepers like myself and finders of nit-picky record keepers' boxes.

my .02

Being Shielded

http://www.atlasquest.com/people/profile.html?gMemberId=1

Benjamin Franklin is the one who first said that "inactive" would be the better choice.
What would David H. Comins think?

;-) Mama Cache

If, for example, I was planning a trip, I would only bring clues for boxes not marked missing. However, I would be really mad to find out later that one which had been "missing" was in fact replaced the day before I arrived. If the box was marked "unavailable" I would be sure to check it again just before I left to see if it had become available.

BINGO!

I make that point in my post as well.

JPMcD

*nodding like ryan*

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But seriously, I know the terms 'missing' and 'retired' aren't ideal, but I have yet to think of something better. If you can, please tell me!

How about a little clickable question mark icon next to the terms (active, missing, retired) so those people who are confused can get clarification about what the terms mean.

If there was a "pulled for maintenance" option under missing, we might also need a "pulled until the park is reconstructed" and a "pulled while I'm out of the country for a year" etc. I agree that the extra info could go in the clues.

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If, for example, I was planning a trip, I would only bring clues for boxes not marked missing. However, I would be really mad to find out later that one which had been "missing" was in fact replaced the day before I arrived. If the box was marked "unavailable" I would be sure to check it again just before I left to see if it had become available.

BINGO!

I make that point in my post as well.

JPMcD

Yep - What they said!!!

Mama Fox - glad there are people more coherent that I am at the moment ;-)) (going to bed!)

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If there was a "pulled for maintenance" option under missing, we might also need a "pulled until the park is reconstructed" and a "pulled while I'm out of the country for a year" etc. I agree that the extra info could go in the clues.

no, no, we're not asking for "pulled for maintenance" or really elaborate things.

right now the status choices are:
active, unknown, retired, and missing

we all seem to agre that active means the box is there, unknown means the owner has had reports that it's gone but they haven't checked on it yet, and retired means it's not there and it's never coming back.

the term under discusion is missing. Ryan feels that mising for any reason is missing. period. however, many of the users of the site who both plant and find feel there are two categories of missing...short term and long term. we would like to see "missing" used for long term, and "inactive" added to the choices for short terem missing boxes, the difference being that a "mising" box is tottally disappeared, while an "inactive" box can be accounted for, although temporarily out of place for reasons unspecified.

night writer

hehehehe
yeah...that's it Ben Franklin said it first... "Inactive"

LOL

Lord help me, I'm actually thinking about adding a new status rather than changing the missing one. *sigh* I totally do not think it's necessary (as a finder, I do not care one bit WHY a box is missing), but it seems like there are a lot of people who want to distinguish between the two different types of missing.

It's more precise, but logically in my head, I can't get around the fact that I think it's completely unnecessary. More precision isn't always better, either. I can tell you the distance between San Luis Obispo and Seattle is 1035.63 miles, but really, would anyone argue with me if I said the distance was 1000 miles? Sure, 1035.63 is more precise and gives you more information, but the extra precision doesn't help with trip planning at all.

Well, at least I can be sure that no matter what I finally decide, some people will be happy with the decision and some people won't be. =)

-- Ryan

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More precision isn't always better, either. I can tell you the distance between San Luis Obispo and Seattle is 1035.63 miles, but really, would anyone argue with me if I said the distance was 1000 miles?

i see it is much more LOGICAL to use correct terms for something...
it's not an argument either so please don't see it that way.
logically...what does missing REALLY mean?
if you tell me your car keys are missing that does not mean you know where they are.
missing logically means missing.

rounding numbers is different...at least to me.
rounding numbers is saying there is "about" 1000 miles involved.
why would we want to be anything less than accurate about box status?

if a box is not missing and is not active it could still be unknown but unknown also means EXACTLY what it implies. so if it's not missing, active or unknown it must be inactive. that is pure logic!

there would be NO confusion as to what missing means if it were not used to mean more than one thing.

I've been completely middle of the road on this until just now. Dixie has won me over.

I have a box that I have pulled the clues because I want to move the thing 100 feet before anyone searches for it. It is still listed as active because it's not missing. In fact, the thing is still right where I planted it. But it IS inactive.

And I think this does matter to the finder, because I would be much more likely to check back on an "inactive" box than a "missing" box.

I have chosen a side, and it is the dark one.

Mr Yuk.

I am with Dixie - I have one box out of a five box series that went somewhere and I am in te process of re-carving it. I would like finderst to know that this box is on it's way back out in the wild and that the entire series will be up and running in it's completed state soon. Inactive would get my vote.

AGJ

Part of it is also the default searches and such. I'm NOT trying to suggest more changes (truly, I'm not) but you have to CHOOSE to search for missing boxes. Right now, the default deletes them from a generic AQ search or City search or whatever. Perhaps if you left the current default alone (where missing doesn't show), and added the inactive status and had it as part of the default search (where they automatically show) that would help. Then, as a boxer, I would know that *normally* the box would be there, but there's a specific reason it's not, and to check with the planter to see what's up and if it would be available when I would be in the area.

Also, as a planter, if I had a box I had as inactive, and someone contacted me, I would be more likely to get it back out there more quickly. Missing, I'm just going to say, "Ehhh...I'm working on that."

JPMcD

By definition, a missing box is inactive and a retired box is inactive. How does the word inactive add any clarity? I know it is said to mean the box is under maintenance, but the definition of inactive implies nothing of the sort.

As for comparing this to car keys, sometimes your keys are “missing” for only a short time. Saying the keys are “missing” means that the person looking for them can’t find them. That’s why we mark letterboxes as “missing”, to imply that the finders can’t find them.

If you absolutely must add another word, “inactive” will not add any clarity for anyone who doesn’t diligently read what each word is suppose to mean, or who hasn’t read this thread. A new letterboxer will have no idea the difference between inactive and missing.

If you add another word to describe a box that is under maintenance, these are some other questions to answer:

How long can a box stay in “temporarily removed” status before it is legitimately “missing” in the eyes of finders? I have letterboxes that I’ve created three years ago and still haven’t planted. I don’t submit clues for them ahead of time, but some people do so they can “hold their place”. Intentions are so easy to have, and not always worth a lot.

Do these “temporarily removed” letterboxes fall into the default searches? I personally think they shouldn’t because they are MISSING.

And, why can’t all of this information be neatly explained at the beginning of each clue. We spend hours creating a letterbox and still find it too difficult to add a note at the first of a clue stating WHEN we intend to replace it???? (Two days, two years, etc.).

There can be no more clarity than what’s provided in a clue. Adding more options is unnecessary, and potentially confusing… especially if the option is “INACTIVE”.

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But you all have provided two decent replacement names for missing: inactive and unavailable. And I'm willing to switch it, but which one?

I would vote for "unavailable". It's the most generic term, applying to the greatest variety of situations. For examples:

The box might be there, it's just that the area is closed to the public right now. Hence, "Missing" isn't really right, because it's not actually missing, it's just unavailable.

The box might be in the planter's hands, somebody found it and then couldn't replant for some reason so they mailed it back to the planter and he's awaiting an opportunity to get out there and replant. Not actually missing, and not really inactive, just unavailable.

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I would vote for "unavailable". It's the most generic term, applying to the greatest variety of situations. For examples:

The box might be there, it's just that the area is closed to the public right now. Hence, "Missing" isn't really right, because it's not actually missing, it's just unavailable.

The box might be in the planter's hands, somebody found it and then couldn't replant for some reason so they mailed it back to the planter and he's awaiting an opportunity to get out there and replant. Not actually missing, and not really inactive, just unavailable.

I agree that "unavailable" is better than "inactive". And I also agree that some of the situations you stated would not fall under the "missing" category. This option would come in quite handy when a box is hidden in an area that is closed for a certain number of months.

But, then what do you do about the default searches in this case? If the box had not moved, but access was not possible, I would say "leave on the default search". But, if it was sitting on someone's desk, I think it should NOT be on the default search. (back to the intentions problem).

I don't envy you, Ryan, for having to find the perfect solution here.

-QP

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It seems to me that the problem is not whether you call it 'missing' or 'inactive' or 'unavailable' -- the problem is that there isn't universal agreement on what any of these terms mean or how they should be applied.

Good point. Ideally, you want the terms to be as self-explanatory as possible -- especially for the finder as opposed to the planter. I think replacing the term "missing" with "unavailable" may result in the best selection of terms:

active - Ready for hunting.

unknown - The planter isn't too sure whether it's there or not. Hunt, but don't be too surprised or disappointed if you can't find it. And please report to the placer your results.

unavailable - It's not there, don't bother looking. However, check back again later, it might become available again.

retired - It's gone forever. You might consider planting a new box in the area.

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...I ain't got no freakin' idea what happened to it, but it's gone.

...will probably not be replaced, but I'm not willing to retire it yet; it was one of my first plants.

"Unavailable" describes the situation to the hunter quite well.

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Since these cases aren't really comparing apples to apples, I guess I'd prefer having "inactive". That would still leave me with my quandary about my truly "missing" box because it is not "inactive" since it will take me a lot more work to make it active again.

It's truly "unavailable" though. This is why I prefer the term "unavailable" -- it describes basically any situation in which the box is not available for finding but may be at some point in the future.

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I don't see a need to change anything.

Missing means it isn't there and if the potential finder goes to look for it THEY WON'T FIND IT. If I pull my letterbox, it's missing. If a raccoon eats it, it's missing.

So, what do you put when the box is in its spot -- but the park is temporarily closed, you can't get to it?