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ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Apr 3, 2007 11:10am
Thread (disabled) Board
I would like to hear some opinions about something that a friend of mine brought to my attention concerning letterboxing in cemeteries. I DO NOT intend to start an argument, and really don't care to get body slammed for asking...so if you feel like responding with something tacky, please move on to something else.

I like to hide boxes in cemeteries, especially old, historical, and interesting ones. I have a love for the macabre, and many of my stamps are spooky. Well, a friend of mine...who is also a letterboxer...brought up an ethical question to me about hiding letterboxes in cemeteries. Her father-in-law passed away a couple of years ago, and they consider his grave a sacred place to be revered and respected...and naturally I respect and understand that. She said that the thought of people tramping over his grave to find a letterbox disturbed her, and of course, I agreed. Having said that, I have a box hidden in a graveyard very near our family plots. I like to think that my grandparents would be thrilled with the idea that someone is looking for that box right there. I think of it as "honoring them".

Well, her thoughts about it raised some questions that are swimming around in my brain. When we hide or hunt in cemeteries, we never walk over graves, and we never hunt when families are nearby, visiting loved ones. That is how we respect the dead and the mourning. But is that enough? Should we be there at all? What are your thoughts? And please....be kind.

Stargazer
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:16am
Thread (disabled) Board
We have searched for four boxes in cemeteries and as long as it's not near a grave that someone would potentially still be morning at I think it's fine. Two of the boxes were in historical graveyards that I think the most recent burial was about 60 years ago. And the other two were in very small out of the way graveyards that had few graves. I think it's fine to hide in a graveyard if you respect the graves and those around you. We always walk around the graves and like you said don't look for the box if someone is nearby. Just my two cents.

~Bookworms
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:22am
Thread (disabled) Board
I have several letterboxes in cemeteries, but all the boxes are placed in such a way that no one would have to traipse across a person's grave to get it. One of my latest letterboxes honors my sister, who passed away a couple of years ago. (She knew about geocacheing but didn't "get" letterboxing.) I think of her having visitors when that box is found.

I think it would be true to say that the kind of person who would be disrespectful in a cemetery would be that way whether he/she was seeking a box or not. This kind of person is probably disrespectful at other times and in other places also. Can we eliminate these people from letterboxing? No. Can we strive to set good examples at all times and in all places? Yes.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:31am
Thread (disabled) Board
I love the idea of "honoring" someone's memory by planting in cemeteries. I have a series planted in a cemetery because of the view. There is a bench there on which someone could stamp in and watch the seasons change. (The boxes change out with each season.)

Back to your question.

I think that it would be a great idea to list "What are some guidelines to follow when hiding and searching in cemeteries?" as Wiki question.

Then you could link to the question in your clues and ask those who seek your boxes to please read it before they set out on the hunt.

Mama Cache
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:34am
Thread (disabled) Board
I also started planting cemetery boxes after visiting several of them in another state. None of my boxes require tromping over anyone at rest to access them and all of my carvings are of angles out of respect for those that have passed before us. My favorite locations are the old pioneer or historical cemeteries with history that I try to include with my clues. Honestly at most of these cemeteries I have planted at I have never seen another living soul visiting so I like to think that the residents might just enjoy a letterboxer or two coming their direction for a visit. It can get lonely without any company. I believe that if we are all respectful during our time there that it is a great way to remember those who have gone by those of us that are still around.

In addition I have planted memorial boxes for both my grandmother and mother. Neither have a resting place locally. If they had been buried locally I just might have looked for a headstone that was letterbox hiding friendly.

Blackvelvetrav
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:36am
Thread (disabled) Board
I agree... some of my most favorite boxes are in cemetaries. I think planting in them and hunting in them is okay as long as all involved are respectful of the people who are there and respectful of the area in general (no running screaming kids, no traipsing across graves, etc).

my 2 cents,
Rhea
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 11:39am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote ... I have a box hidden in a graveyard very near our family plots. I like to think that my grandparents would be thrilled with the idea that someone is looking for that box right there. I think of it as "honoring them".

Those are my thoughts as well. This might be considered tacky but, I have thought that when I die it would be fun to have a headstone with a secret compartment where people would find a hidden letterbox with a stamp that I carved.

Lone R
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 12:00pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote When we hide or hunt in cemeteries, we never walk over graves, and we never hunt when families are nearby, visiting loved ones. That is how we respect the dead and the mourning. But is that enough?


I have hunted many geocaches at cemeteries. Geocaches, as we all know, are a different matter, because the hunter doesn't really know where it is, he only has a roughly 50-foot circle he must search in. This means conceivably he could end up scouring all over a cemetery in his search.

Geocaches at cemeteries are *very* common. In fact, there has been talk of a special icon for them. I own two cemetery geocaches myself -- but one is at a pet cemetery.

Most of the cemetery geocaches I've hunted are not actually in the cemetery, they're just outside it -- and they say so in the cache listing specifically to prevent people from tromping around on the graves looking for it.

As an atheologist, I probably should stay out of the entire discussion about respect for gravesites. The entire notion of the way our society treats dead bodies makes me nauseous.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 12:01pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I love hunting boxes in cemetaries as well. The history is a draw for me, and my daughter and I both love reading the markers, matching up family members, etc. Of course, we are very cautious about tramping across graves and would never search while someone was present paying their respects. I think that the vast majority of the letterboxing crowd is aware and respectful enough to handle boxes in cemetaries.

Hope
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 12:05pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I also hide in cemeteries! And, I too, like the very old ones. But I have boxes in newer ones too. My thought is that many of the graves never get any visitors. I like to take flowers with me when I hunt in a cemetery and if the box is hidden near a grave, I put flowers on it. I always put flowers out when I plant a box in a cemetery.

I olden days, people used to picnic in cemeteries.

However, I would respect the wishes of any family members who object. And I never plan on a Native American burial ground.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83006 by Corazon
Apr 3, 2007 12:24pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I think it would be true to say that the kind of person who would be disrespectful in a cemetery would be that way whether he/she was seeking a box or not. This kind of person is probably disrespectful at other times and in other places also. Can we eliminate these people from letterboxing? No. Can we strive to set good examples at all times and in all places? Yes.


I have a few cemetery plants, and some of our cemetery finds are some of my favorites. It all depends on how it is done.

People who are respectfully planters in other places (respectful of habitats, respectful of property) etc., tend to be conscientious cemetery planters. And then, you have the others...the knuckleheads...who use people's headstones as hiding spots. And the same is true of finders. Even if you plant a letterbox in a conscientious spot, there's nothing to stop someone from traipsing over every grave to get to it. But these same people would probably tear apart a historic stone wall or walk through a delicate habitat.

Personally, we don't live near our family. Visiting cemeteries for letterboxing purposes actually helps me teach my children how fascinating they are and how to behave while visiting one. I love going to cemeteries and I love it when letterboxing leads me to a neat one!

Quote I olden days, people used to picnic in cemeteries.

My family still does that in Arkansas, for our annual cemetery clean up day.

Many of our amazing urban cemeteries were designed as park-like spaces and places where people went on outings. They were designed to be used by the general public.

dewberry
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83036 by dewberry
Apr 3, 2007 12:31pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I have many cemetery boxes (my Taphophile series of boxes). A taphophile is a person who appreciates and respects cemetaries including cemetery art and cemetary landscaping. Each box is housed in a coffin or other appropriate container and are some of my most popular boxes. I believe the most important word is planting with "respect". And that goes for areas that AREN'T cemeteries, too. :)

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83022 by Kirbert
Apr 3, 2007 12:31pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote As an atheologist, I probably should stay out of the entire discussion about respect for gravesites. The entire notion of the way our society treats dead bodies makes me nauseous.


I'd be interested in seeing how the atheology and societal treatment of dead bodies makes you nauseous relate.


As for planting in graveyards, the first question is: Is it illegal in your state? Secondly: would that stop you or merely slow you down some?

R, that would be a hoot to have a hideaway in a stone. All kinds of funny remarks about HHs are going through my brain.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83036 by dewberry
Apr 3, 2007 12:34pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I just found 4 boxes this past week in cemeteries and there was no one there. I didn't think it was disrespectful at all. Infact it was a tribute to grandparents.

I study family history and genealogy and picnic in cemeteries every summer. They are very peaceful places and my kids love to read the names and fix the flowers that fall over while I record information or make new floral arrangements for loved ones.

CP
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 12:37pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I've found several boxes in cemeteries and I've planted one just outside the perimeter of a small cemetery. Most of them have been respectful of the deceased, but I did find one that was hidden inside a monument of some kind within a family plot. I wasn't too keen about that... but... considering what else has been known to transpire inside cemeteries, letterboxing or geocaching in one is child's play.

I was considering a series called "Permanent Residents" (or "Eternal Celestial Dirt Nappers") some time ago, but I let that idea expire... um... peacefully.

I'm mildly superstitious about walking on someone's grave, so I'll either walk behind the behind the headstone or stay 8' from the front.

My 6yo daughter, every time she sees a cemetery, starts off the inevitable discussion with something like, "That's a cemetery, people died there." If it's a large cemetery, she's likely to blurt out, "Look at all the people who died in that cemetery!" No matter how many times we tell her that the people actually died somewhere else... it's just cute.

StarSAELS
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83044 by BrewHiker
Apr 3, 2007 12:45pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote My 6yo daughter, every time she sees a cemetery, starts off the inevitable discussion with something like, "That's a cemetery, people died there." If it's a large cemetery, she's likely to blurt out, "Look at all the people who died in that cemetery!" No matter how many times we tell her that the people actually died somewhere else... it's just cute.


My 5yo daughter does the same thing - only it's usually a question about why someone would want to put flowers there. "will it make the people come back" or "does it make the dead people feel better to have flowers on their bodies"...etc. etc.

We found our first box in a historic cemetary. It was done really respectfully and was really fun to find. I say plant away!

AGJ
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 1:24pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I agree with what people have been saying here--as long as you are careful when you plant the box to place it so that it isn't disturbing a grave or any family members, I think it's fine. In my family, most of the people of my parent's generation are no longer living (including my parents). My mother died when I was 17, and even at that age, I don't think I would have objected to someone planting a box in the cemetery where she is buried, as long as it was done as you've indicated.

I keep thinking, too, that if the caretakers of historic cemeteries didn't want people going in, the cemeteries wouldn't be open to the public. And personally, I am one of those "taphophiles" that Lock Wench mentioned, so I love boxes that take me to cemeteries, especially the older ones. I love seeing what is on the gravestones, the artistry of some of the grave markers, and the quiet of the entire place.

And as someone mentioned on the boards a while back when the question of boxes in cemeteries came up, the oldest graves in some cemeteries don't have living family to care about them any more, and that person figured that it was nice to bring someone in to look at the grave and think about the person who was buried there.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83053 by noydb
Apr 3, 2007 1:52pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I was just talking to ZoeMomma about this a few days ago, and have recently planted my first-ever cemetery box. I admit that my feelings have changed greatly over the years since I started boxing. Maybe that has a bit to do with me getting older too?

In the beginning I didn't like the idea of boxes there because I felt it was disrespectful. However, when you think about it...cemeteries are DESIGNED for people to come to! That's the point...a place to be respectful, honor those gone before us, tell a story when there's noone left to tell it. I guess now I'm a respectful Taphophile (thanks LW!) because I LOVE old, historical, story-filled cemeteries with endless interesting bits of architecture and carvings. I love the old iron fences, and the traditional angels, and the plots set in weird places that you just KNOW tell a story if only you could find it. Now I feel that some of these cemeteries are almost lost, and the very definition of respectful to their history would be to pay them the attention they deserve and visit. That was the original point, after all.

That is not to say I think 'just any old' box should go 'any old where' in a cemetery. My personal belief is that I will never plant a box that involves moving or disturbing a stone or grave, or that forces people to walk over or be disrespectful of the area.

Some of my very favorite boxes are cemeteries-- the wonderful night box in Charlotte for example. That is an AWESOME find. Those in the cemetery in Augusta are incredible! (not identifying which one..you have to figure that out...)

Now that I've done one, I'll do more! But with the same moral code-- respectful, reflecting the cemetery, and appropriate.

GreyCrazy
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83057 by GreyCrazy
Apr 3, 2007 2:23pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I have planted in cemeteries and don't seem to think that this should be too big of an issue. With the understanding that as a group we are supposed to be pretty respectful everywhere we go, it should be a nonissue. I have one box that someone might consider questionable for a cemetery and if asked to I would graciously remove it, however, I think that the context of the clue helps to draw out a more profound understanding of the image, than the image alone imparts.

Bubba
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83014 by Lone R
Apr 3, 2007 2:31pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I have thought that when I die it would be fun to have a headstone with a secret compartment where people would find a hidden letterbox with a stamp that I carved.


Oh, that is the COOLEST idea I've ever heard. I would totally do that!

Stargazer
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 2:34pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I have planted (2 boxes) in cemetaries and searched. We are careful to be respectful. My daughter will not step on a grave for love nor money.

One of my boxes in memory of a special athlete while the other has a reminder to take care of business before we wind up in a long forgotten grave.

It also can be very historic to take people to important cemetaries. At least someone is visiting the graves!
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83057 by GreyCrazy
Apr 3, 2007 2:44pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Greycrazy and I have run across a few local cemeteries that are absolutely amazing. What history, what interesting stories, what amazing locations........and we drive by them all the time and never notice them.

I think markers were originally placed to show that we once passed this way....and why erect a monument or marker if no one should ever see it. I have found amazing locations by looking for letterboxes....and cemeteries are no exception.

And hey, I want one of those markers with a secret compartment for a letterbox when my time comes!!!! The fun continues!!!!

Zoe
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 2:47pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Okay, after reading these posts, and the old thread (thanks for that link) I wonder if I should rehide one of mine.
http://www.atlasquest.com/lboxes/clue/index.html?gBoxId=21401

If you don't mind, take a look at the clues. For those of you that have found it, what do you think? Were you disturbed in hunting for this box? Apparently I committed two faux pas: I referenced someone's head stone in the clues, and I planted behind a stone...albeit an unmarked stone that had rebar poking out from it.

TIA,
Stargazer
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83068 by IrishRef
Apr 3, 2007 2:49pm
Thread (disabled) Board
We picked up the HH letterboxing puppies at an isolated cemetery in northern Kentucky. We actually searched through the cemetery to find an appropriate container to hold water so that we could give them a drink. We dumped out the dead flowers, and used the container as a water dish. Sometimes respect and honor for the graves isn't as important as caring for the living.

A.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83004 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 2:54pm
Thread (disabled) Board
It seems that most agree that with some common sense and common courtesy (as with all things) all things are possible and allowable.

There will be times and people who do not posses or display one or both and it is not going to have anything to do with cemeteries they are just going to be of that character.

There will be people who are offended by the notion.

BUT, for the most part, the Letterboxers here seem to be saying box-on!
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83022 by Kirbert
Apr 3, 2007 2:59pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I don't know how many cemeteries are like this, but to get to my grandmother and my father's headstones, you really can't avoid walking over someone else's grave. Sometimes you're like "Woops, I'm standing on the remnants of a headstone..hmmm..." Some cemeteries are just a little more..um...populated than others. Especially churchyard cemeteries.

I've also noticed in bigger cities, people use cemeteries to walk their dogs. I have issues with a dog peeing on a headstone, but not with dogs running around.

I think I'm rambly today...

*plink plink*
LG.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83074 by Black Widow
Apr 3, 2007 2:59pm
Thread (disabled) Board
The few boxes in cemetaries I have hunted for all referenced names on the stones... I see no problem with this as long as it does not require walking over the graves to read them (I do not know of any stones that have that small of writing anyway)...

Quote If you don't mind, take a look at the clues. For those of you that have found it, what do you think? Were you disturbed in hunting for this box? Apparently I committed two faux pas: I referenced someone's head stone in the clues, and I planted behind a stone...albeit an unmarked stone that had rebar poking out from it.


I could see some objection to planting behind a stone, but I personally have not found your box to know if this is a case of a box that needs to be moved. I would personally avoid hiding near an actual stone and instead choose a tree or bench or pile of rocks nearby if available. Not that I think it is disrespectful, but if the stone was not unmarked, would you have planted behind it? Even unmarked stones in disrepair deserve the same respect as marked ones.

Just my thoughts.
Rhea
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83085 by The Gillespie Tribe
Apr 3, 2007 3:01pm
Thread (disabled) Board
In order to stand in front of a stone to read it, or pay respects, I'm pretty sure I'm standing right on top of my loved one. No?

LG.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83086 by LibraryGrrl
Apr 3, 2007 3:04pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote In order to stand in front of a stone to read it, or pay respects, I'm pretty sure I'm standing right on top of my loved one. No?


This all depends on how the cemetary is set up... most of the ones out in CA (current ones anyway) people are actually buried directly under the headstone, or directly in front of or behind... but usually vertically (standing up), unless cremated. The older ones have walkways around the actual burial sites so as long as you are on the paths you are not on a grave.
Re: ethical question about cemeteries
Board: Traditional Letterboxes
Reply to: #83084 by LibraryGrrl
Apr 3, 2007 3:20pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I have issues with a dog peeing on a headstone, but not with dogs running around.

I agree. I bet a lot of those people, who when they were alive liked dogs.

Lone R