Ok...I've been discussing this topic with several other carvers of "adult" images...and we are all stumped on this one.

When we post that we have an adult image, we list it as WOM..so as to assure that only adults are given the clues. We also reiterate in the listing as well as the clues that the stamp image is FOR ADULTS ONLY.

So imagine our surprise to see children logging this find on their accounts ( several children seem to be allowed to log these, or their parents are logging it for them). They are also stamping into the logbook. Now I don't try to tell other parents how to raise their children, but I purposely put ADULTS ONLY my WOM boxes, and when I share this clue I expect them to not let children stamp into the box or take the image. One parent explained that they only let their child have the "head" of the image..but still allowed them to stamp in and log the find. WTF?!?! What am I supposed to tell other adults who see a child listed as a finder? Will THEY then assume children can have the image and log it?!? Is one more find REALLY that important that you HAVE to log it in online? Can't they just count it in their personal count and not confuse potential new finders?

Or are we just going to have to take down the listings completely? I have really enjoyed trading more adult images with adults.....and it really burns my butt to see some little kid stamped into the logbook. I do the same thing I do with adults who stamp into my kids' only box..I tear out that page and contact them and ask them to remove the find. Not as important with a kid's box..as the image content is rated G...but my adult boxes ( the listed ones, anyway) are PG-13 and I would prefer they stay that way.

Any one have any good ideas? By the way, when contacted, these people were pissy and rude. Turns out they got the WOM clues from someone else..which is another whole problem, as it seems some boxers are passing out our WOM clues as though they were after dinner mints. We don't want our WOM boxes to be "elitist", but we am really pulling out our hair over some of these people who have no problem taking the clues but don't honor the wishes of the planters, who have spent considerable time and money on this stuff. Help!

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"

I'm also somewhat in a quandry about this, which is what prompted my temporarily pulling the adult boxes and voiding the clues. My boxes didn't say "Adults only, No Children", an oversight which has now been corrected. Mine were listed as Adult themed and WOM. I (probably wrongly) assumed others would understand this to mean it was a box for adults and not children.

Yes, my images sometimes contain nudity (usually female torso). I don't feel this is any more offensive or illicit than what might be viewed at your local art museum, but at the same time, I tried to be sensitive to others feelings and recognize that not everyone is as liberal with regard to the human body as I am.

We don't want our WOM boxes to be "elitist", but we am really pulling out our hair over some of these people who have no problem taking the clues but don't honor the wishes of the planters

This is probably where I have my biggest issue, regardless of what type of box it it. If the planter has some specific purpose/thought/intent, and we choose to disregard that, why would we get upset if the planter calls us on it? How is this any different than posting spoilers about a mystery box, or moving a box from its original hiding place because you found a 'better spot'.

I'm oversimplifying, and I know it, but the point is, if the planter has specific ideas about the box and has communicated, in good faith, those intents, why the drama when called on it?

I'm not trying to argue with you...I'm just mentioning this because I don't know the answer.

I received a WOM clue from a 3rd party. I assumed it was ok to do this. The boxer who gave it to me was a very experienced/well known boxer. Was it wrong of me to look for the box since I didn't get the clue from the creator?
Do creators of WOM boxes tell people not to share the clues? Or do they generally let 3rd parties give out that information?

Wow, you have kid-only boxes?! I haven't heard of that one before.

As for me personally I am a big fan/artist of classic american tattoos, including pin-ups and have often thought of doing a series of stamps based on some of my stuff, but haven't done it because of the possibility that someone might stumble on the box. I had considered making the boxes and planting them in spots that just aren't likely to be stumbled on at all. I gave up the idea completely when JenniPMcD planted her boxes that sounded similar because I didn't want to be ripping her off. But I was glad to see them out there. Now she is pulling them and I'm disappointed. But if the thought of a kid seeing the image bothers her then she did the right thing.

Parents should have the sense to not let their kids see the boxes if it's labeled Adult Only, but you really can't count on that. I'd say if you're going to plant an adult box you're going to have to expect some kids to have parents that just don't care. If you don't like the possibility of a kid seeing the image then I think the only thing you can do to completely avoid that is not plant the box. It's too bad you can't trust parents to make good decisions.

Think about how many times you've seen kids in an R-rated movie. I see that all the time. For that matter, most kids see material on TV way worse than any stamp image I can imagine. And their parents let that happen.

I'd say if you're going to plant an adult box you're going to have to expect some kids to have parents that just don't care.

Actually, I somewhat expect this. Sad, but true. As you said, some people are just going to do this, even if they only allow the child to see "non-adult" parts of the image. Once I put the box out there, I was doing what I could to limit child exposure and give parents the information to make an informed decision regarding whether to get the box or not. I can't parent for them.

My 'issue' is the logging of the find by a child (or the child's account). The ability of others to view the clue and finders on AQ *is* a reflection on the box and the planter, to some extent. I feel allowing a child to log the find potentially sends the wrong message to future hunters. I can't control every eventuality of what happens in the wild with a box, but I do have some measure of control over the listing. I'm choosing to exercise that.

Of course, at this time, the point is moot, since I've pulled the boxes.

Jenni P McD

you know what's bad? through all these posts, I am trying to stay focused on the questions at hand, but my mind keeps floating back to the fact that I do not have one adult themed stamp....and I really want one..

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My 'issue' is the logging of the find by a child (or the child's account).

Is there a possibilty of listing the name of the box with a really high f count restriction. Then just put "WOM" for the clue part? Then if someone (a parent logging for a child) wants to log it they can, but no one else (unless they have that high of an F count) would be able to see who logged it?
Not sure if this would work, but it might spark a thought of some other loop hole that might.

I'm working on that.... :-)

Jenni P McD

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Do creators of WOM boxes tell people not to share the clues? Or do they generally let 3rd parties give out that information?

When I give out one of my WOM clues I am specific as to how it is to be shared (or not).

If I receive a WOM clue directly from the planter and it is not specified as to whether if can be passed along (and under what criteria) I ask.

If I receive a WOM clue from a 3rd party I have assumed that they have cleared it with the planter that it is okay to give it out and I ask the 3rd party what the criteria is for giving it out (or not). I have assumed the 3rd party is a trusted source of information (this may not be the case) and I go and find the box. After finding the box, I would contact the planter and tell them about their nice box I was thrilled to find. If the planter responses that I was not supposed to have the clue I consider the fault with the 3rd party as they did not properly get the guidelines for the clue (I have also given the planter valueable info. on who has improperly passed on the clue)-- however, under no circumstances would I compound the error by passing on the clue without the planter's wishes.

This is just my opinion, however, and I know how things can get "distorted" as a message is passed on, but if you check with the planter BEFORE passing on a clue (whether you find the box first or not) the "error" will at least go no further than you.

The problem with this is that you can still see the find list for boxes you don't have access to due to F restrictions. So, that doesn't really solve my particular issue. It was a good thought though. And, I'm currently thinking my way through several alternatives.

JPMcD

As for me personally I am a big fan/artist of classic american tattoos, including pin-ups and have often thought of doing a series of stamps based on some of my stuff, but haven't done it because of the possibility that someone might stumble on the box. I had considered making the boxes and planting them in spots that just aren't likely to be stumbled on at all. I gave up the idea completely when JenniPMcD planted her boxes that sounded similar because I didn't want to be ripping her off.

For the record, I wouldn't consider that ripping my idea off (heck, I pilfered it from LW) and I would love to find stuff like that.

Just me and my art obsession. :-)

JPMcD

Just to be clear..let me just say that the majority of our adult images are "peek-a-boo" images....or "pin-up" style...not hardcore porn. While many parents consider them tame, I am trying to be responsive to those parents like the one that told me she didn't appreciate a stamp image with a miniskirt...with no warning. Better to err on the side of caution, and all that, right?

I am thinking that these will just have to be unlisted boxes from now on...which means only premium members will be able to log them as a find. Which sucks..but I don't know how else to protect the boxes from being mis-used.

Still open to any other ideas, though!

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"

I doubt I am the original source of adult themed boxes. I just really like them so I have spent a couple of years carving a great deal of them...and have sprinkled them all over the country because other people seem to enjoy them too. Many people have been inspired to carve their own adult images after receiving one of mine..which pleases me to no end, because then I can collect those! Nothing wrong with the typical stamp..sometimes it's just fun to get some "spice."

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"

As for kids' only boxes...yes, I have planted 3. They are from my SUN events, and are all wired for sound. Sometimes they are also loaded with cooties. :)

LW PhD
"nice counts"

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I am thinking that these will just have to be unlisted boxes from now on...which means only premium members will be able to log them as a find. Which sucks..but I don't know how else to protect the boxes from being mis-used.

I guess I still don't understand quite what the problem is. As you explained it, I thought the problem was, Family A finds box and all members of A record find. Family B sees that minors in Family A have recorded box as find and decides that, notwithstanding the clear "Adults Only" label, the box must be rated G. Family B flips out because they don't have the same reaction as Family A, even though they have apparently chosen to ignore the warning label. I suppose making it an unlisted box reduces the number of Family A minors who can record the find, but presumably they still exist. Isn't it simpler and more direct to ask people receiving the clues not to give them out to third parties?

If the problem is that you personally simply don't want any minors ever viewing the stamp, I don't think that's possible, speaking as a former minor.

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What am I supposed to tell other adults who see a child listed as a finder? Will THEY then assume children can have the image and log it

I guess I don't see the issue here. You are being a responsible planter, and letting adults know that is stamp may not be appropriate for children. Why does it bother you if a child logs it? You can only take so much responsibility. The parents made a choice and even if they only stamped the "head" of the stamp...I find it hard to believe the child didn't see the whole stamp.

I for one don't have a problem with nudity and kids...depending on what it is. Statue of David like stamp is fine... something with more of a sexual theme, I do mind. With that in mind I prob would not "hunt" for adult stamps at this time.

But you as a planter can't take into consideration what EVERY hunters parenting philosophy is.

You have warned....heck it is WOM. Besides staking out camp... I'm not sure you really have much more control on the situation...and I'm not sure you should either.

Lisa

If the problem is that you personally simply don't want any minors ever viewing the stamp, I don't think that's possible, speaking as a former minor.


I got a chuckle out of that. Thanks for the bit of levity. I needed it. :-)

I just don't want kids AQ accounts logged as finds on my "Adult" boxes, regardless if it says, "Adult-themed" or "Adults Only".

"Adult" should be the key word in that phrase. Although, I'm reminded constantly that the term "adult" is subjective.

JPMcD

I have an idea. Ryan could make a new icon like the ones for drive-by, limited time, etc.

May I suggest a silver Mudflap girl?

Hahaha.

Ya know, if this were Scandanavia or other parts of Europe, there would be no discussion. Unless the stamp is a "how to" or an absolute pictorial, then listing it as "adult" or "adult theme" should be adequate for all but the most addled......or those who couldn't care less what their children see or do.

I'm really curious......
ZoeMOMMA

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Isn't it simpler and more direct to ask people receiving the clues not to give them out to third parties?

But therein lies the rub. You would think so, but apparently some people don't think of admiring the WOM stamp in someone else's book, and contacting the planter and asking if they can have the clues too. They just help themselves.

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If the problem is that you personally simply don't want any minors ever viewing the stamp, I don't think that's possible, speaking as a former minor.

I agree. But I am not looking for unattainable absolutes. I am just trying to demonstrate good faith behavior..that I did my best. The problem is when I ask someone who has obviously ignored my intentions, and ask them to refrain from that behavior, and they tell me: "I don't care what you asked..I'm gonna do what I want with your letterbox and stamp image." Why should a couple of people be allowed to ruin it for everyone else? First I get flamed by some for having adult boxes out there in the first place, but when I do all I can do keep them away from children, I get burned again and told I had it coming to me. WTF?

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"

I don't know what the situation is exactly that led to this, but I did have a thought while reading the posts here.

Is the problem more compounded at gatherings? It seems that these boxes planted somewhere out in the woods, or wherever, have more protection with WOM. However, in a gathering setting, with people close by to one another, and talking about this and that, and boxes getting passed around, that WOM becomes less effective. Some people interpret WOM as Word of Mouth...like it is in the real world. So and so tells me, I tell so and so. It really should be WOP....Word of Planter, if you don't want others sharing the clues...I guess....technically.

People are people, and order always yields to chaos of course. You can't control the actions of others, you just hope they will respect your wishes. In this case, you clearly have put up the "No Tresspassing: Beware of Dog" sign. If they still enter the yard, they should expect to get bitten.

I have no idea what I'm talking about now.

jackbear

LOL....

actually a discussion where I *jokingly* stated I'd rather have an Adult content icon is what started this whole adult stamp mess (for me) in the first place...

but I like the mudflap girl idea...

Is one more find REALLY that important that you HAVE to log it in online?

If the box is listed as an "other" rather than a "traditional", then the find doesn't go toward the F-count. Do you think that kids and their handlers would be so inclined to log it then? Unlisted finds are included in the f-count, so I don't know that that would be the biggest deterent (although then you can't see who else has also found it).

This is a tough one.

CrowGirl

P.S. What does it say about your parenting, that your child has logged an adult box? :)

Personally, I could give a rat's ass if a parent lets their kids see ANY box. It's their kid..do what they want. But when I am trying hard to respect ALL parent's wishes, I would prefer that children NOT log the box as a find online, because it negates my original request for the box to be for ADULTS ONLY and confuses the next parent who goes to search for the box. Maybe the solution is to just ignore the people who write to bitch at me because they weren't properly warned,( even though they got the clue second or third hand) and just write FINDERS..BEWARE! on all of these. Hmm....

Or maybe I will just share my boxes now with people I know personally..and who can keep their mouth shut, and live with the new label that I am now "elitist." Frankly, I've been called worse. :) Like today I got chastised by someone when I "took their boxes without permission." Guilty as charged. I took their broken boxes and soaked logbooks home with me, spent hours to dry them, and wrote them back asking for their address so I could mail them back all cleaned up. I call it "rescuing" but whatever. *shrug*

LW PhD
"nice counts"

Personally, I could give a rat's ass if a parent lets their kids see ANY box. It's their kid..do what they want. But when I am trying hard to respect ALL parent's wishes, I would prefer that children NOT log the box as a find online, because it negates my original request for the box to be for ADULTS ONLY and confuses the next parent who goes to search for the box.

How about the fact you've made a REASONABLE demand regarding the finding and logging of your box?

What are parents who blatently disregard THAT with their kids in tow teaching?

I'm more concerned about THAT than whether the kid sees a mermaid without a shell bra.

Listen,

All this BS really comes down to this.

1. When I box with my son, I wouldn't find one of LW's, Jenni's, or anyone else's adult box.
2. When I box with adults, if I had clues I would look for those FIRST, because the ones I have seen are beautiful, very artistic and NOT pornographic. (most classical painters showed much more)
3. The people that complain about these boxes need to lighten up. There's tens of thousand of boxes out there, surely there is room for something more than kitty kats and leaves.
4. For the people that have adult boxes, keep on plantin them, make them WOM, mark them adults only, whatever. I'm a good enough parent to keep my son away from them. Painting didn't stop at impressionism, stamps shouldn't stop and wildlife.

Just my humble opinion.
Mr. Yuk

Hey, Jenny.........bring some of those boxes to the Greenwood gathering so we cvan see what you are talking about.....

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First I get flamed by some for having adult boxes out there in the first place, but when I do all I can do keep them away from children, I get burned again and told I had it coming to me.

This all seems to come down to a question of who's responsibility is it. Is it mine for planting something racy that is labeled as such and has warnings on? Or is it yours for ignoring those warnings and looking anyway? *isn't this why take-out coffee now has warnings that contents may be HOT?!*

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Maybe the solution is to just ignore the people who write to bitch at me because they weren't properly warned,( even though they got the clue second or third hand) and just write FINDERS..BEWARE! on all of these.

If the ADULTS-ONLY label has come off by the time it gets handed on again, then so will a FINDERS...BEWARE!

I support ignoring the flames from these folks. Don't let the few ruin the fun for the rest of us.
CrowGirl

Hmmm...

Been following this discussion for a while now...

Solutions? Turn the boxes into PTs...then YOU control who gets it.

I realize that rules for WOM dictate that the receiver doesnt pass on the clue to others (still rubbing my butt after blabbing the location of a Northern California mystery box all over the internet in 2003!!)

Once the clues are passed on with the condition of ADULTS ONLY, the onus is on the parents. If they choose to let their kids see, so be it. However, if the finder breaches your conditions (no kids stamps etc) then you should be able to have the entry on AQ removed. (Thoughts, Ryan??)

My two cents

Jiggs

just my own two cents...

my kids have seen LW's adult only stamp images in our logbook, they are beautiful and like someone said worse is seen in art/tv/movies/whatever. HOWEVER, my children have not logged in the logs that accompany these images. ADULT ONLY means (gasp) that the boxes are for adults. I did not stamp into the KIDS ONLY boxes at SUN. They were for kids.

As a parent make your decision, but as a LetterBoxer respect what the PLANTER intended or we may not get to see ANY images from them at all. AND THAT WOULD BE A LOSS TO EVERYONE!

Again just my own two, but do show some respect it is so lacking in everyday life. Thanks.