Okay, here's a question (okay, several questions all on the same subject) from a relatively new letterboxer:

If one finds a letterbox but can't stamp in because the logbook is wet/ruined/full/in pieces--does that count as a find? How about if you find a letterbox but the stamp is missing due to misguided geocachers or some other incident--does that count as a find? I found one the other day that had been waterlogged for so long that not only was the logbook ruined, the stamp crumbled when touched--is that a find? And the last one but not least, if a box created by you for an event but hidden by someone else, is then found by you at said event, is that a find?

I'm not into numbers here but there seems to be quite a bit of tribal knowledge to which 'newbies' like myself are not privy. (Including newbies like myself who have trouble constructing readable sentences.)

--Daisy

IMO, if you get a stamp impression, then it is a find.

TG

Based on what I've read, all three would be considered finds.

"ruined logbook . . . can't stamp in" -- You could stamp it to say you did (or not). But you did find it, and you can log it on AQ to record the fact and to notify the placer that the box needs first aid.

"missing stamp" ... "ruined stamp" -- You could find something else like the lid to stamp with (or not). But you did find it, and you can log it on AQ to record the fact and to notify the placer that the box needs first aid.

"hidden by someone else" -- Ryan touched on defining "placer" recently, I think. In a nutshell, you can be a placer or a finder, not both. If you are not the placer, then you can be the finder. (Ryan, please correct me if I'm misrepresenting you.)

Hope this helps. I've got lots of questions myself, still, about event stamps. But, I think I've understood this much.

Mama Cache

There's a lot of disagreement, but here is what I would do. I don't worry about "counting' my finds exactly, but I try to keep track because it excites our younger letterboxers when we get close to milestone. What can I say, I'm raising a bunch of happy math geeks.

1. logbook wet/ruined/full. . .stamp on a separate piece of paper and add it to the box as a temporary "log book". Make your best decision about what to do with the ruined book. I happen to know you're great about doing any needed maintenance. Believe me when I say, most planters appreciate this. I will even reward you with a special WOM box if you do this for me.

2. No stamp. Not a find.

3. Crumbly stamp. I think I would count that, even if the impression I got wasn't perfect. We found a series of mastercarved stamps, the animal tracks series, where parts of the stamp had crumbled off. . .but it was still stamp-able. I'm not sure what I'd do with one that was completely unstampable.

4. A box you sent and someone else hid is a find, because you didn't write the clues to find it.

Hope this helps!

dewberry

RE: "damaged" finds:

The stamp is the proof you were there and successfully found the box.

If you get a stamp impression, it's a find.
Soaked and unstampable logbook in the box? Still a find.
No logbook in the box? Still a find.

Damaged stamp in the box? If you can get something of an impression, it's a find.

Totally ruined stamp (ie, no impression possible)? Not a find. Attempt is more like it.
No stamp in the box? Not a find. Attempt.

I'd even go so far as to say that if you found the box and everything was perfect but for some reason you got so distracted that you forgot to get an impression of the box's stamp... NOT a find!

Finding a box you created but somebody else planted...

Is a Find. Because you had to actually FIND and retrieve the box, right?


DISCLAIMER: The preceding statements are opinion, not fact, and should not be construed as the rule of law. If you disagree, you're free to say so, but do it nicely.

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"missing stamp" ... "ruined stamp" -- You could find something else like the lid to stamp with

Reference here:

The question was asked about finding a letterbox that had a geocaching trinket inside because the stamp was taken by the geocacher. Someone suggested using the trinket as the stamp.

If there was obviously a stamp in the box originally, why wouldn't it count as a find? The box was found. (Note: I can see how someone would disagree, though.) A smeared pouting face image with the remains of the mushy stamp . . . would that count? ;-)

Perhaps, if you had a digital camera along, you could photograph the logbook and put that image in your logbook in lieu of a stamp image. The missing stamp is enough disappointment for one day. Not being able to "count" the find would only add to that. ("Counting" is more important to some than to others, I realize, who consider the letterbox itself to be icing on the cake and the experience as the cake.)

If you don't count it, you might be able to return to it if the owner recarves.

Mama Cache

It's all kind of silly anyway, since most people I know keep track just for their own purposes anyway, but the "rule" (Hey, there are no rules, right?) as I've come to understand it is "no stamp, no find; no clues (e.g., event stamp left on table for anyone to 'find,' no find)." Obviously, not everyone follows that "rule." Speaking only for myself, I don't record finds of multiple series on LBNA until I've found everything in the series. I suppose some might debate whether series finds count without stamping into the final box with the log book, or whether only the final box counts. And some people (;-) don't count hitchhikers as finds. As I said, there's no ultimate authority here, nor should there be.

Recently we found a box in pieces. The box was in one place - the logbook was soaking wet and separate from the box. We searched and searched but were unable to locate the stamp. We took the logbook home in order to dry it out and contacted the box's adopter to let him know what we had done. He has since recarved a stamp and put in a new logbook. We still have the original logbook, which we will return next time we are in that area. While we didn't find a stamp, we counted the box as a find. We made a note in our logbook concerning the circumstances. When we go return the original book we will stamp with the new stamp beside our original logbook entry. I would not, however, have had any qualms about counting the original find with nothing else as a find. To me an attempt is a search that yields nothing. If I find a box in pieces - I've found the box - and will then contact the owner to let them know of its condition. I think the best answer to your question is what do you feel good about doing. I felt perfectly good about the decision we made in this circumstance - if you would have made a different choice - then there's your answer.

Galaxy4

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If you don't count it, you might be able to return to it if the owner recarves.

I was thinking about this and sometimes people can't go back to the box. Maybe they are traveling or something. Could they contact the owner and let them know that the stamp is missing. Then when the owner recarves the stamp, could the owner email/mail the "finder" a copy of the stamp.

Would that work? They didn't get to stamp it in themselves, but they DID find the box and they DID do the planter a service by letting them know it needed attention. Both very good things in our community. Would it be ok to reward the finder with an image of the remade stamp???

everyone counts differently, what you have to decide is how you're going to count, and then remain consistent.

for myself, I keep a separate find count for traditional boxes (20), virtuals (46), postals (17), hh's (2), cooties (2), exchanges (9), event stamps (0), bonuses (0), travellers (0), and other (0). I keep a separate plant count in all those categories too, except for exchanges.

my mom, on the other hand, counts exchanges, plants, and EVERYTHING else is a find, no matter what sort of a box it is, it all goes into her personal F count.

Drives me crazy, but I keep reminding myself that while her method is not wrong, mine is not the ONE TRUE WAY either. This is an area everyone has to define for themselves.

Personally, if I find a physical box, or any part of a box, because I followed clues to it, it's a find. If I follow the clues and know I'm in the right place, it's an attempt. If I wimp out halfway up the mountain, well, I had a nice hike on a beautiful day.

night writer

Per the LBNA FAQ:

Further, a letterbox can only count as Found when the letterboxer obtains a stamp image from any stamp associated with that box, and their personal stamp image has been imprinted (or attempted) in the logbook or other part of the box.

Regardless of protocol, I agree with night writer.........if I have the clues and locate any part of the box, it's a find for me........but then again, after my first 100, I'm not so anal about recording every little thing.

As per The Letterboxer's Companion by Randy Hall (co-founder LbNA)

A box must have a stamp and a logbook to count as a letterbox for purposes of the PF count. It doesn't matter where or how the clues are published, or if the box has clues at all.

"•You may not count as found a box you have placed, even if it is a hitchhiker.

•You may not count the same box more than once unless its clues, stamp and location have all changed.

•Hitchhikers count as boxes. They count as placed when the creator releases them for the first time, and they count as found when discovered by anyone (except the creator,) regardless of where they were found.

•Exchanged personal stamps and travelers don't count as F's but as X's (for "exchanged".)

•Event (gathering stamps) count as E's (for "event".)

These are the conventions I learned when I began letterboxing. I stopped keeping count a year and a half ago but when I did keep a tally these were the rules I followed. Thanks Randy! Funhog

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Hitchhikers count as boxes. They count as placed when the creator releases them for the first time, and they count as found when discovered by anyone (except the creator,) regardless of where they were found.


Wow, that would seriously raise my f-count and p-count if I counted all the HH's I found and planted.

Do keep in mind that when this was written, hitchhikers were a rare and special treat. People didn't often make them, and finding one was not the everyday occurrence it is now. In fact, some areas have so many of them that I know some boxers who find them to be an annoyance. Funhog

Hitchhikers count as boxes.

Coming from a co-founder of LbNA . . . this raises a question for me, then, because on Atlas Quest and on LbNA, hitchhikers do not show up as finds in "PFX counts." (AQ's grid is nice for breaking everything down, but I'm talking about the summary count that actually says "P1 F1 X1.")

I saw the inconsistency (definition vs website count) and wondered about it. Is there disagreement on this counting business even among those who write the "rules," so to speak?

Note: I realize that there are no consequences for those that don't follow protocol, and that most people just want to know how to log and describe their experiences.

Another example (without reopening a can of worms) -- what does "attempt" mean to you? (Don't answer that, please.) The real answer is that what people are trying to communicate by listing an "attempt" varies widely.

The same seems to hold true on the missing/ruined stamp issue. The question, "What did you find?" seems to go to the heart of it. The stamp distinguishes a letterbox from a geocache and from any other sort of track 'n find box that might be created. So, saying that it had to contain a stamp could go more toward distinguishing it from other boxes. (i.e. Don't log your geocaches as unlisted finds on AQ.) It's ultimately going to be a personal decision, and one that isn't going to have great effect, if any, on other letterboxers.

Hopefully, everyone can do all they can to keep the missing stamp phenomenon from becoming common:
- hide well; keep it sealed
- replace well; keep it sealed
- label well; "not a geocache"
Just some examples . . .

~Mama Cache

I consider all of them finds. ;)

There's a box in southern CT with no stamp in it. The stamp has been missing for some time but hte planter seems to be MIA... I've tried to contact her (as have others) but I think she's out of letterboxing for a while.

Anyway, I found it... So I counted it as a find. I mean, like I said... I found it.

But that's just me. :)

And it's also not your fault if you can't log in, in my opinion. If you remember to have index cards with you, then you can leave one behind in the box with your sig on it, but otherwise... Again, I'd call it a find. ;)

But that's just me!

Oh yeah!!! I've done that too! There's a box in East Hampton CT that had a missing stamp for a while. I think the stamp has been replaced... but in the meantime, I took a photo of what the stamp is supposed to look like and put it into my logbook. Again, it's a find. I found it, after all. :)

(Again, these are my own opinions...)

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Coming from a co-founder of LbNA . . . this raises a question for me, then, because on Atlas Quest and on LbNA, hitchhikers do not show up as finds in "PFX counts."

Personally, I've always counted hitchhikers I planted as part of my P-count, and hitchhikers that I've found in a normal letterbox (not given to me, not sitting on a table at a gathering, not mailed in a postal box, etc.) as finds. Hitchhikers I planted I *never* counted as finds, and if I find the same hitchhiker more than once, it only gets counted once. Those are the rules I learned when I started letterboxing, so that's how I'd count for my personal stats.

Atlas Quest, as you noted, does not do this. =) Back in the old days, hitchhikers were extremely rare and not particularly controversial about how they were counted. As the number of them grew, people started leaving them on tables at gatherings and dozens of people would stamp into it--many would count these as "finds" which a lot of people didn't think was right. "I found it on the table!" was a common saying. And I agreed. =)

There were also a lot of people who I suspect started carving and hiding dozens of hitchhikers to up their P-count. Hitchhikers don't require nearly as much work as a typical letterbox. No clues need to be written, no hiding places found, etc. They counted as plants, but it seemed like some people were abusing that fact.

So when I created Atlas Quest, I decided to change the rules and not count them at all as part of the official PFX count. I didn't want to encourage people to make hitchhikers just to increase their P-count, and I didn't want to encourage people to "find" hitchhikers that were found on picnic tables at a gathering.

Later, as additional types of boxes were created that the PFX count was never meant to handle (postals, virtuals, cooties, etc.), I liked the idea of separating the counts of traditional and non-traditional boxes.

So it's more of an evolutionary change. I changed the rules here to solve problems we were having with the older rules of counting.

Which isn't to say that the AQ style of counting is the "right" way to do things. It's just the way AQ does it. I'd still count the hitchhikers I planted and found in my own private counts, regardless of how Atlas Quest counts. From a programmatic perspective, it's just easier to leave hitchhikers counts in a class of their own.

-- Ryan

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There's a box in southern CT with no stamp in it. The stamp has been missing for some time but hte planter seems to be MIA... I've tried to contact her (as have others) but I think she's out of letterboxing for a while.

If the letterbox that's missing the stamp is in your neighborhood & you know the stamp is missing & you know what the original stamp is supposed to look like (i.e. the digital photo of the impression from the logbook) why not go ahead and carve a replacement stamp for the box so the quandary is resolved for future finders? Consider it your Random Act of Kindness for the day.

If the planter is indeed no longer letterboxing (which happens a bit after the initial curiosity/infatuation wave passes) I'm sure future finders would greatly appreciate the effort taken to revive a box that obviously has some historical existence--although it's been orphaned. I specifically carry a carving tool, a spare chunk of PZ Kut, a pencil and a 2"x2" piece of tracing paper in my logbook for exactly these situations--and carve a replacement stamp on the spot. Just an idea...I add that to the 'maintenance on the go' concept that many letterboxers conduct while they're out on the trail where they swap out plastic bags/logbooks as needed.

daelphinus

Here's the thing... When I found it, people had written in the logbook that it had been missing for a while, but I didn't have any stamp-making materials on me. It had been usurped by a geocacher who left a baggie of crayons. So I used the orange crayon to draw in the image of what the stamp was supposed to be. :::shrug:::

I didn't know until a couple of attempts to contact the placer that she wasn't going to get back to me, and then after chatting with some others, found out that she hadn't been in contact with anyone, really.

It's not a hard walk, but a long one. I may consider it, if I'm in that neck of the woods again anytime soon... but not in January. ;) Maybe in the spring.

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Later, as additional types of boxes were created that the PFX count was never meant to handle (postals, virtuals, cooties, etc.), I liked the idea of separating the counts of traditional and non-traditional boxes.

Love the grid idea! It gives a quick visual of the big picture (if everything is posted on AQ). No change requests here.

PFX counts don't compare apples with apples, and that's okay. A matter of taste, seasoned with protocol!

~Mama Cache

There were some boxes here in the pacific northwest that were missing their stamps, the boxes and logbooks were still there. I kept getting notes about them because they were in the same park with some of my own letterboxes. For a couple of years (well 2 years) I kept trying to find/contact the original owners of the boxes. They never answered an email and they never showed up at any Pacific Northwest gatherings. I went out one more time to check on all the boxes in the park and the stamps were still missing. (one was missing and one was damaged--they had used the crumbly grey stuff). So I was going to adopt the boxes. After all, it had been two years!! I carved replacement stamps and went back the following week to fix the boxes.

When I got out there, the boxes had been totally replaced and fixed BY THE ORIGINAL OWNERS!! These people just never answer their email. They had gotten the messages, they just never bothered to reply. Needless to say I was pretty miffed. But I was glad that they were going to finally maintain their own boxes and I wouldn't worry about them anymore.

And now I had a couple of nicely carved letterbox stamps with no where to go....I just sliced off the name of the park and used them for other things.

Unfortunately, I still get reports about these boxes (I never adopted them) They are in a park where I have letterboxes too and when people email me, they will say..."I found your boxes and I also looked for box XYZ and it was all wet" or "Box ABC has a lousy clue, the tree is gone and the trail is not blocked anymore"

And these owners have disappeared back to wherever they came from. Still aren't answering mail or using AQ or the Yahoo groups and still not coming to gatherings. Very annoying sometimes.

-Amanda from Seattle

Would you then be considered as having adopted the box? Would you be the new owner?

There once was a box with the stamp broken. I let the adoptive owner (who lives FAR from the box) know I was going to recarve a stamp for it, and then scoured the internet until I found someone who'd found the box and could email me the image. I recarved the stamp and went to put it in the box, only to discover that someone else had contacted the adoptive owners, who had carved a whole new stamp image for the box, and they'd put that in there.

I have to admit to being a bit miffed, too. Since I'd let them know what I was going to do, I wish they'd at least have let me know they'd taken care of it. Then I wouldn't have put all that research and work into recarving the stamp.

Oh well. Breathe in, breathe out, move on.

DebBee

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Hitchhikers don't require nearly as much work as a typical letterbox.

That depends on who's planting them! ;)

I agree about not counting them, but I always thought that it was because you didn't have to do any extra work to find them. You just stumbled on them in other boxes. No solving clues, no extra hiking...so why should you get to count them?

I actually love the way AQ separates the different kinds of plants and finds. It's easier to keep track of things that way. And if you are checking out someone's profile, you can see at a glance if they are really into postals and virtuals or whatever else.
Stacy

I count hitchhikers separately, because in my head, they're a whole separate category. That's the way that makes sense to me, so that's how I do it. YMMV.

DebBee

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IMO, if you get a stamp impression, then it is a find.

I agree with this 100%

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"hidden by someone else" -- Ryan touched on defining "placer" recently, I think. In a nutshell, you can be a placer or a finder, not both. If you are not the placer, then you can be the finder. (Ryan, please correct me if I'm misrepresenting you.)

I also think you can't get a Fcount credit if you have been the author.
am I right Ryan??
no credit for finding if you are listed as either planter or author...??

dixie

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I actually love the way AQ separates the different kinds of plants and finds.

I love that grid too and precisely why I have listed some HH's that were mailed to me as finds. Like Ryan, I have always counted my outdoor hitchhiker plants and finds in my main count because we do over here. They only count once even if you find them again in a different place.

I have always found HH's in traditional boxes. Recently because of AQ some were posted to me. It is because AQ separates them from the main count that I felt I would like to claim them as a find. People put a lot of work into those HH's for me to have fun with before moving them on and so I did list them as a find on AQ.

YT

You don't get Fcount credit for your own boxes although they do show up on your list.

In our house I usually carve, author the clues and hide then the boys go out and work the clue page to hunt it down after school or on the weekend....they are usually the first finders of my boxes , they love to log it in, they never have noticed that our # stays the same. They do have their own trail name but when we consolidate we have more to show for our total work! And total family fun!!! They love it and it makes no difference to me , at first I was a little bugged by listing my own boxes like I was somehow being cheesey or something but then I realized that it's really not changing anything in the long run and my boys are stoked about it!

enjoy the journey,
teekasue