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Read Thread: And the votes are in.....

And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Dec 22, 2006 9:44am
Thread (disabled) Board
I had some ideas about how I might interpret these results, and some people even e-mailed me to suggest things like I should only count votes by premium members since they're the ones that are financially supporting the site. Or perhaps only count the votes of people who've actually planted boxes since both of these issues affect planted boxes.

As it turns out, the decisions are pretty easy because regardless of how the votes were counted, the results were the same.

Grand total, 486 people voted.

Regarding the matter of attempted finds:
288 people want to leave things the way they are now with no option to opt out (59%)
136 people think the planter should have the option of opting out (28%)
39 people don't want attempts displayed at all, like before (8%)
23 people have no preference (5%)

Regarding the matter of blue diamonds:
203 people "love 'em" and want them to stay (42%)
112 people "hate 'em" and want them to go (23%)
171 people have no preference (35%)

A bit of commentary.... Attempted finds: I had worried before the voting started about "split votes" and decided that if the number of people who didn't want attempted finds shown at all AND the number of people who wanted to opt out was greater than the number of people who wanted attempts shown, I'd go with the opt out. As it turned out, splitting the votes wouldn't have made any difference--a whopping 59% think finders should always be able to see attempts. Those who chose the opt out--I assume that means those 28% of people DO want to see attempts (or at least that the option should be available) but are willing to let the planters decide. In any case, only a measly 8% of voters don't think that information should be available at all. It's not even close.

For those who are disappointed with the results, sorry. But remember this: If you give finders what they want, they're far more likely to enjoy your boxes and go out of their way to look for them. I know there are fears that people might avoid boxes with lots of attempts, but most people are pretty smart and will only consider it as another tool in their toolbox. Some people have even expressed a desire to go out of their way to nab those hard to find boxes.

I've also been tweaking the colors--has anyone noticed?--so attempts no longer use the "fire engine red" color as one member described it, and now uses a more neutral blue in the hopes of encouraging people to look for such boxes anyhow. If a lot of invalid attempts are logged on a box, I can still delete them. And there's also the fact that you can record a find on your own boxes to tell people THAT BOX IS THERE despite the attempts it might have on it. Use it to let people know that the box is still there or if it has been replaced. The list of finds and attempts is a method for finders to communicate with each other about the status of a box, but it's also a method for planters to communicate with the finders of their box as well.

I might also add, for those of you opposed to attempts or think there should be an opt out because you're afraid people will stop looking for your boxes, remember you do not have to pull ALL of your letterboxes. You could just pull the ones that have lots of attempted finds on them. After all, if the problem is really the attempted finds, it doesn't make much sense to delete boxes that have no attempts on them.

Will I ever reconsider this issue? Of course. I'm always trying to figure out what's best for Atlas Quest. Showing attempts is a new, unproven feature, and it might be that six months from now, real issues have emerged because of it. Those who support it now might change their mind based on the feedback and decide they no longer want to support it. It's admittedly a long shot--support for showing attempts is HUGE--but then who would have thought the Red Sox would ever win the World Series? Stranger things have happened. =)

Next up: blue diamonds.

Support outnumbers opponents of the blue diamonds by 2 to 1, so by most standards, it's quite a rout. However, neither side of the issue has an actual majority. I kind of suspected before the voting started that a small minority of people supported them and a small minority opposed them, but I wasn't sure which side had the larger minority.

The good news, for those that oppose the blue diamonds, was that a few people contacted me saying they voted against the blue diamonds only because I recently made the planter's choice available. I can't be sure how many votes this changed, but it would likely have been an even bigger difference without the planter's choice alternative. I wonder how many more people would be willing to "give up" blue diamonds if the planter's choice turns out to be an effective alternative for narrowing down choices in the future. Planter's choice is still pretty new and unproven. It does have potential pitfalls--what if people mark ALL of their boxes as a planter's choice? Or none of them?

But 42% of people feel the blue diamonds do serve a useful purpose. Is this the last word on blue diamonds? God, I hope so, but I doubt it. I did change at least a few votes by providing an alternative feature, however, and for those of you opposed to blue diamonds, that will be your best shot at getting rid of the feature completely. I designed blue diamonds to serve two purposes: (1) to help finders narrow down choices from an often bewildering number of choices, and (2) as a pat on the back for a job well done. If you have an idea for an alternative way of meeting these goals, it might be enough to erode support for the blue diamonds. Planter's choice might continue to erode support for blue diamonds in the future, and I'd be willing to take another vote in the future to see if that happens. But a large minority feels, at this time, there are no viable alternatives for blue diamonds.

But I will keep the ability for people to opt out of blue diamonds. The supporters don't have a majority to change that. =)

I don't think there's a single feature on Atlas Quest that has 100% universal support--that's an unrealistic expectation. But the masses have voted, and I hope we can all agree simply to disagree and leave things at that. As individuals, we can't always get our own way.

On the plus side--for me, at least--the results mean I don't have to change any code which makes my life easier. =)

-- Ryan
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58257 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 9:58am
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I have a question. How did you come up with four results for the attempts and three for the blue diamonds? When I voted there were two things to vote on and only two choices.

I personally won't be doing anything different. I was just curious.

Shiloh
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58259 by shiloh
Dec 22, 2006 10:25am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote When I voted there were two things to vote on and only two choices.


You're serious? There were always four choices for attempts and three choices for blue diamonds. At no point should you have seen only two choices.

-- Ryan
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58269 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 11:24am
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For what it's worth, I saw the proper amount of choices
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58257 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 11:35am
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Quote Planter's choice is still pretty new and unproven. It does have potential pitfalls--what if people mark ALL of their boxes as a planter's choice?


Well, it seems like that particular pitfall could be averted pretty simply by limiting the percentage of one's own boxes that the PC could apply to. I'd suggest 10%.
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58257 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 12:12pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Ryan,
I have to ask...who are you? You sound like this amazing guy that travels the world, but somehow manages to answer everyone question, fix a glitch in minutes, solve problems, change around a huge wonderful website in minutes!! Do you travel with a laptop everywhere you go?

I was reading some of the entries on your adventure page....wow thats a lot of traveling. I know that you are currently unemployed, but goodness how do you manage to be away for all that time at once? Do you have a wife, where is your home? I know you responded to someone saying those thru hikes must be awfully expensive by saying its really only about a dollar or so a mile. Do you hike and get jobs along the way?

I once read a book "The Walk Across America" by Peter Jenkins written in the 80's. It was about a guy that was frustrated with America and decided to see it how it really was. He started in NY and worked his way down south, then up and across the country. Met hundreds of people, lived with them, worked his way along. He met a woman and married along the way and finished the walk with her. I sort of anticipate this is what your book will be like. I do look forward to seeing it.

I feel like everyone here knows you so well, but there must be other new people that wonder about you like I do. I just find it so amazing that someone complains about something not working, or doesnt understand something and boom with in a matter of minutes you are right there with the answer. Will you be able to do that when you go on your thru hike along the PCT? If not, how long does that sort of thing take? Does someone manage the site while you are gone?

Like I said I am just a curious person that wants to know who you are! :-)
Not that I am a stalker or anything....just a stay at home mom that has too much time to spend on the computer reading boards and posts about people and wonders who everyone is!

vicki
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58297 by Crazyolis
Dec 22, 2006 12:24pm
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Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58257 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 12:54pm
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I am not surprised at all about how the voting went, only disappointed that finders would not let planters have the final say on their own boxes..at least on the AQ site. No one feature was ever the issue for me.


LW PhD
"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58307 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 1:03pm
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Hi LW

Unfortunately this will create some editing of our clues, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. (pun intended)

Don
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58308 by Don and Gwen
Dec 22, 2006 1:06pm
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Yeah. I've already begun my own editing. *grin*

LW PhD

"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58310 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 1:11pm
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Quote Yeah. I've already begun my own editing. *grin*

LW PhD

"Nice Counts"


Ahh, that is an interesting concept, but I think 'll stay with mine.

Don
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58311 by Don and Gwen
Dec 22, 2006 1:26pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I think my method is very democratic. Tons of people have stamped into my boxes without giving me one hint hat they have found it . And it doesn't bother me a bit. I haul my ample ghetto booty out there to each box to do maintenance and I always get some surprises.

Now finders will have a surprise too. A surprise whether the box is there or not. In most likelihood, it will be. But I can't guarantee you'll like the clues, the hike, the scenery, the view or even the stamp, so you'll just have to take your chances.

No hard feelings if you don't want to even try. Just a nice reward for those that do. I am not going back to the "traditional" English method of printing clues in a book and making you find 100 stamps before you can get a book. The majority of the clues are right here for the taking. Totally free. But I am DONE spoon feeding boxers. I am not hurt if you pass mine by. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

LW PhD

"Nice counts....but being a doormat for others is no fun"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58307 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 1:33pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote only disappointed that finders would not let planters have the final say on their own boxes


You can't blame just the finders in this case. I did sort through the votes and only counted the votes by people who planted boxes to see how it was different from finders, and the percentages are still nearly the same:

223 planters wanted to always have attempts displayed (59%)
110 planters wanted to let the planter decide (29%)
31 planters never wanted attempts shown (8%)
16 had no opinion (4%)

As a percentage of total votes, the results were almost identical to before. (More more so than I would have expected!) Just a 1% change from those with no opinion to those who think the planter should decide.

-- Ryan
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58318 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 1:45pm
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Ok. I stand corrrected. I am only disappointed in PEOPLE who would not let ME have the final say on MY OWN boxes.

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58257 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 1:46pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Re: listing of attempts

Quote 288 people want to leave things the way they are now with no option to opt out (59%)


I find it interesting that so many people were in favor of tying the planters' hands in this manner. To me, allowing the planter as much freedom as possible regarding his own plants would be a good thing. If he opts out of listing finds and attempts and I don't like it, I don't have to look for his boxes.
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58316 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 1:50pm
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Quote But I am DONE spoon feeding boxers. I am not hurt if you pass mine by. Different strokes for different folks and all that.


I second that!

I like how you've done your "editing," although you might choose to turn off the find/attempted status on LBNA as well. In general, although for most things I prefer Atlasquest, I like how that preference is set up at the LBNA site, and the preference is so easy to enable/disable.

I am frankly shocked that so many people wouldn't opt to leave this sort of decision about clue display up to the hiders. But, trust a clever girl like Lockwench to find a workaround.

Dewberry
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58323 by dewberry
Dec 22, 2006 1:57pm
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Sure..it's just like the original days of USA letterboxing. Ya know..when things like this were AN ADVENTURE.With an UNKNOWN TREAT at the end. Without a GUARANTEED OUTCOME. Where you were just happy you were physically, mentally, and financially able to do this.

SHeesh.

LW PhD

"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58297 by Crazyolis
Dec 22, 2006 2:03pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I have to ask...who are you?


Oh, I wish I had a good answer for that. =)

Most of the questions you had can be answered from various pages on this site like that "About Me" page, but you did bring up one question that I'd like to address:

Quote I just find it so amazing that someone complains about something not working, or doesnt understand something and boom with in a matter of minutes you are right there with the answer. Will you be able to do that when you go on your thru hike along the PCT? If not, how long does that sort of thing take? Does someone manage the site while you are gone?


While on the PCT, you probably won't hear much from me. Just not enough Internet access out in the woods. I'll still drop into civilization once a week or so to resupply, and I'll call people like Amanda or my mom who can give me the scoop if there's something important going on at AQ that I'd need to know about or fix, but the lag time will be much greater. I plan to leave AQ on solid footing before I leave, though, and there will be someone around who can help keep the site running in case something does go terribly wrong. (Not entirely sure who, just yet, but I have over a year to figure that out!) I usually do all of the "admin" work myself even though there are already two other admins, but they'll have to do some of the day-to-day stuff that I usually do while I'm on the trip. There aren't any other webmasters here, though, so I will have to find someone who can do webmaster-ish tasks while I'm out of touch, though. Admins have powers, but they don't have the technical skills necessary to repair the database or change information directly in the database when necessary. Although I plan to create a lot more admin pages so a lot of the tasks I do manually they might be able to do from a simple webpage. There's no way I can possibly predict everything they'll need to do ahead of time, though, which is what I'd need a webmaster for. =)

Kind of ironic, though. The more I can automate the site, the less I'll be needed on a day-to-day basis. I'm making myself obsolete! ;o)

-- Ryan
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58327 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 2:34pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Kind of ironic, though. The more I can automate the site, the less I'll be needed on a day-to-day basis.


no, the more you automate the site, the more time you will have that is free from mundane things, and therefore you can spend that time finding/planting and coming up with more cool ideas to make AQ an even better best letterboxing site.

Quote I'm making myself obsolete! ;o)


you'll never be obsolete, ryan.

night writer
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58326 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 2:48pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Just so people understand.....I have only made changes to MY OWN letterboxes. Any boxes that I planted for other people ( such as those sent for an event or swapped in an exchange) that are listed on my logbook are still listed just as they are. The many boxes that I carved for people as gifts are also listed just as they are. I would never presume to make changes to other people's boxes.

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58335 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 3:43pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I have never look at any of your clues as you are, I presume in NY, or somewhere thereabouts, and I am in TN (which may explain why I still don't understand). Tell me exactly what changes you are making to edit your clues, and what difference the changes will make. It just seems to me that anytime you go out on the hunt it is never a sure thing that the box will be there, or that you will enjoy the hike. I agree with you that as planters we should have some say so concerning our boxes. What changes are you making to ensure that the hike will be pleasurable, or to ensure that the box is there. I believe that too many attempts showing can discourage someone from looking for your boxes, especially when you are boxing with the family (children tagging along), but how does showing the finds effect that. I haven't, yet, got this whole opt-out thing swallowed. I have 2 BD boxes, myself. They were given to the box by other finders. That, to me, is not necessarily praise or cudos for me, but for the box as a worthy hunt. My wife and I went to Missouri recently and we got several boxes that were there and that were on the way. We targeted BD boxes because that to me is the insurance that someone else liked the box. There were two that were missing, but there were no attempts logged on them, so the owner nor we suspected they were missing. I am sorry for being a little bit slow. Heck, I may even be crawling at a snails pace, but I have boxes out there and I would love to understand how all of this is going to effect them. I took your advise and I am keeping more of an open mind when I read the boards, but I am still confused as to what the gulp of the problem is. After the last time I posted, I really don't want anyone to get the wrong picture. I really don't think I am absorbing the seriousness of the situation. Please enlighten me, as my ample ghetto booty seems a bit lost about it.
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58349 by The Wolf Family
Dec 22, 2006 5:40pm
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Thanks. I think I understand that, and why she did it. Makes sense.
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58349 by The Wolf Family
Dec 22, 2006 6:24pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote it appears that the difference that it has made is that all the finders now show a status of "unknown". The result is that you do not know if the box is there or not, or if the last person found it or not. You just go and take your chances if you want to hunt them.
it appears that the difference that it has made is that all the finders now show a status of "unknown". The result is that you do not know if the box is there or not, or if the last person found it or not. You just go and take your chances if you want to hunt them.


...or you take 5 seconds and click on the finder's logbook to see if it was a find or an attempt. So all changing the status of the box does is inconvenience those who want to check by making them click a couple more times, not prevent them seeing what the last person did (other than mystery boxes, of course, since there is no link to the finder).
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58269 by Green Tortuga
Dec 22, 2006 7:48pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote You're serious?


I'm completely serious. I thought at the time that I don't have much choice on how to vote but there has been so much complaining that I'm not about to start something. Not that it matters now, but I have no real preference but I do think people should have a choice.

Shiloh
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58355 by Eidolon
Dec 22, 2006 7:56pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote So all changing the status of the box does is inconvenience those who want to check by making them click a couple more times, not prevent them seeing what the last person did (other than mystery boxes, of course, since there is no link to the finder)

I like that aspect of my mystery boxes. You have to love a good mystery.
t
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58355 by Eidolon
Dec 22, 2006 9:08pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote So all changing the status of the box does is inconvenience those who want to check by making them click a couple more times, not prevent them seeing what the last person did (other than mystery boxes, of course, since there is no link to the finder).


Exactly. Of course what you call "inconvenience", I call "challenge". You can still get what you need. You just have to work a little instead of having it spoon-fed to you. I know other people that are using other methods to avoid highlighting attempts, but this is the one I have chosen. Just for the record, when I do a box searchfor myself I check the boxes for "Active and "Unknown" and don't bother with "missing" or"retired." This is because I enjoy a little adventure. Not everyone does.

Once I remember Ryan putting out a good tutorial about how to "target your audience" ....to attract the kind of finders you are interested in. Since my degrees are in marketing and consumer behavior...this made a lot of sense to me. I am not really looking for the greatest quantity of finders for my box..just appreciative ones. Therefore I am only targeting those who like a tiny bit of the unknown aspect/adventure of letterboxing. Everyone else can pass 'em by. :)

LW PhD
"Nice Counts"
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58378 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 9:31pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote what you call "inconvenience", I call "challenge". <snip>Therefore I am only targeting those who like a tiny bit of the unknown aspect/adventure of letterboxing.


I guess this is a point of view I just will never comprehend. To sum up my views and leave the topic (I was just poiting out the "loophole" in the idea of changing the status, it doesn't actually concern me one way or the other since I too always search for unknown):

Hiding the status makes it no more or less of a challenge. Just because a box was found today by someone does not mean it will be there tomorrow when I go. So there is still the same mystery, still the same adventure and still the same unknown aspect. *shrug*
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58378 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 9:33pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Of course what you call "inconvenience", I call "challenge". You can still get what you need. You just have to work a little instead of having it spoon-fed to you......Therefore I am only targeting those who like a tiny bit of the unknown aspect/adventure of letterboxing.


That sounds pretty fair to me. You must be a person - like myself - who love LbNA because instead of having Cities and sites off Interstates fed to you, you like the challenge of having to research where the counties and cities are in states that you are going to visit, kind of like a mystery box.

Hey, you know, whatever suits the individual planter is cool with me, but it's nice to know there are others out there who like a challenge. The next time I get upstate I hope to search out some of your boxes.

Jaxx
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58378 by Lock Wench
Dec 22, 2006 10:02pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I am not hurt if you pass mine by.


Quote Exactly. Of course what you call "inconvenience", I call "challenge".


Quote AN ADVENTURE.With an UNKNOWN TREAT at the end. Without a GUARANTEED OUTCOME.

But isn't this what it's all about???? The Area/View?? the Mystery??, the Hike,?? the Hunt?? Or has it become an other 'hobby' of instant gratification....(please, tell me I'm wrong!!)


Quote I am not really looking for the greatest quantity of finders for my box..just appreciative ones. Therefore I am only targeting those who like a tiny bit of the unknown aspect/adventure of letterboxing. Everyone else can pass 'em by. :)


yup! if they don't like my 'clues', they can choose to ignore them!

* putting on my 'flame' proof vest, or the 'white coat' with the sleeves that buckle in the back*
Re: And the votes are in.....
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #58297 by Crazyolis
Dec 23, 2006 3:56am
Thread (disabled) Board
I'm with Vicki, I'm amazed by Ryan's ever present replies. You are way too good to us! Now I've got to find your travel background; that sounds like something a Travel'n Turtle can appreciate!

Thanks for everything you do! Happy Holidays from another Turtle,

Travel'n Turtle