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I would be a bit shocked if my loved one's headstone was part of the clue. Actually, I think I would be mortified and outraged.

Wouldn't bother me. My husband has instructions to put a secret door on my headstone for a letterbox-- that way I am guaranteed at least a few visitors.

Seriously, though, I don't see it as any worse than geneology groups that do tombstone rubbings. The rubbing might actually do more damage to the face of the tombstone than finding a box next to it. I'm sure there is guidelines for this too, though, to be respectful. Still, if it upsets you to see a loved ones name in a clue, how would you feel if you saw them standing on the gravesite rubbing crayon on a paper on the headstone?

What needs to be kept in mind is how it is presented. Most of us love a moment of fame when our name is mentioned in the newspaper for something or we get a little write up on Mark's blog featuring our box, etc. I'd love it if my name was preserved in a clue somewhere (even if it was just a landmark to a new location), but I wouldn't like it if it was associated with something degrading. I don't feel a tastefully planted box, with lovely artwork and a location designed to remember our past is degrading in the least.

If going with kids in a cemetery I am sure to remind them to be quiet and respectful, even more so than in the woods. It is easy for them to get involved in the moment of finding the box, but they must remember also where they are.

As someone who has, to-date, 2 cemetary boxes, but am planning more - I've really appreciated this discussion.

Here's my bit, for what it's worth. And I might add that I had read that line in Randy Hall's book beforehand and thought a lot about it. We have some wonderfully historic pioneer cemeteries here in Colorado that almost no one visits, however.:

1 box requires you to wander around a very important Colorado cemetery quite a bit. It's absolutely astounding how much history is there (we're talking former governors, etc) and even I didn't know about it before I started doing research. I do reference several people by name, but all were those I learned about because of literature published by the cemetery foundation which is available for sale and whose graves are visited on tours given by the cemetery. And then I placed the box...nearby but >outside< the cemetery. Urban gardners of all sorts (public and private) are my "worst enemies" when it comes to placing boxes (and fisherpeople who hang around for HOURS are when it comes to finds...) so I tend to steer clear of "their" territory when I place boxes. Now if only the massive construction where this box is supposed to be will EVER get done, I can replace this (currently pulled for over 6 months) box!

For a 2nd box - a mystery box ....(needless to say I'm gonna be vague here) - I do use some words which could be clues, they could be names, or they could be both or neither. I looked around for HOURS trying to find a place to hide this box outside the grounds, but it was all private property - which was definitely not gonna be OK. So, being as how I would NEVER hide a box in, on, around, or under rocks next to someone else's grave - I think I did a fair job of a compromise for a place that is respectful to the residents, but also provides a chance to visit a very out of the way and special place.

Having said that, when it's MY time...You'll know my grave by an epitaph which says something like: "What's this button do?...." or..."Hold my beer and watch this....." In which case I would welcome a suitably punny letterbox and visitors!

.....seriously, good discussion. Thanks for bringing it up. Halloween isn't all that far away and I just started thinking about a 3rd idea during my bike ride home today!

preboxed
Denver

Here is another way to "plant" a cemetery box:

http://www.atlasquest.com/lboxes/clue/index.html?gBoxId=12181

Everyone can "visit" this one of mine and learn something. :)

My "Taphophiles Unite!" series is for cemetary lovers. In fact, that's the definition of a taphophile...someone who admires and reveres cemetaries. Some love the tranquil settings, some love the wonderful landscaping, some love the history and stories of the people buried there and some love the artistry of the stone carvers. Cemetaries were even regularly visited as popular picnic areas in this country not so long ago.

I have tiny cemetaries, military cemetaries, huge tour-visited cemetaries, and church cemetaries in my series of cemetary boxes. In each case, I plant away from actual graves..in the edges of the grounds, for instance, with one quirky exception( which you would have to be there to understand). As long as my box visitors are taphophile lovers too...and are respectful and neat...there should be no problems whatsoever.

LW

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"Respect Spiritual Places. It is rarely appropriate to place boxes in Native American burial grounds, earthworks, or other ceremonial or sacred sites; houses of worship; or even cemeteries.

I think there's a difference between "normal" cemetaries and "Native American" cemetaries. There are several in this area and you can tell the difference. Now, I am not Native, so I don't know for sure what it is and I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful in what I'm saying. The Native cemetaries here have a wall or gate around them and they have little "huts" that look like very small doghouses without a door. They actually just found one here in the last year or so, where we used to watch the fireworks and they gated it off and erected the "huts." I went into another one once and I'll tell you, I have never felt the way I felt in there..... completely not alone and that I wasn't wanted.

There is a place for a ceremonial fire as well at one location. There are ceremonies at it and the people are friendly in my experiences, but you know that there's something "spiritual" going on and respect it.

That's why I'm thinking that the definition above is for that reason. "Normal" cemetaries, in my experience don't have spiritual connections or ceremonies that you may be intruding on or disrespecting without even knowing (other than a funeral, but I think LBers have enough sense to figure that one out). But generally when you are on a reservation you know that and you also know that the "rules" of anything and everything may be different.

I personally would love to plant/find in a cemetary and I plan on getting to it eventually ; ) but with all the respect in the world for those living and deceased.

Moonduck

I personally love cemeteries. I am an amateur genealogist blessed with a lot of relatives in my immediate vicinity (I am half puritan and half mayflower, so these are old graves) I have been to many over the years.

I really like cemeteries, as do my children. I enjoy getting boxes there, because it brings me to cemeteries that I wouldn't ordinarily visit. I do have one box there so far, (Uncle Henry) which is meant to honor my great great great Uncle Henry who was awarded the Medal of Honor in the Civil War. I was planning on making a multigraveyard series in honor my trips to different cemeteries I visit on Memorial day each year (at least 6-8)

As a Christian, I don't think of the people being in the ground, just their bodies.
I go to the cemeteries to remember, and don't feel the need to be funereal there.

JMHO

Diana

Personally, I see no difference between an Indian Burial Ground or a regular Cemetery. They're both places where the dead have been interred. That being said, as long as one is respectful, I don't see a real problem, and if someone else sees the box and is upset, well, you can be pretty sure that box will end up MIA.

It's all based on perceptions. So even if most of us thinks its okay, someone won't.

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It's all based on perceptions.

I too have been really interested in reading all these posts. I am still trying to get comfortable with the thought of urban letterboxing, let alone cemeterys, and when I first saw a cemetery clue I have to admit I did think quietly to myself that you had actually taken letterboxing just a step too far on your side of the pond.

Now, having read all your posts, and weighed all the pros and cons I find I like the idea. Everyone has really thought about it carefully. I have no plans to plant one myself but I do think it is much more respectful than tourists going round a cemetery. I love all the ideas for letterboxing holes in letterboxers headstones, and especially the one with a bench to stamp up on :-)

YT

I've joked with my family that should put my sig stamp in a box by my grave, so people could do posthumous exchanges ;)

I wouldn't mind, but then I'm a letterboxer.
Just as long as the geocachers don't take the flowers off and leave a Happy Meal toy ;)

Mariette

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Just as long as the geocachers don't take the flowers off and leave a Happy Meal toy ;)

LMAO

Shiloh

I have found a few boxes in cemeteries and never really bothered me, but the last one I attepted, was a longer walk, making you find markers in statues, then another marker from there, to another statue, and so on. Really kinda bothered me to be "walking" on these graves..It just didnt seem right.

I think that is wrong, to walk through a graveyard and over the dead folks.

I'd say, make a box be near the edges, or somewhere where you dont have to walk on gravesites...then refer the finder to some historical or cool statue, and see if they want to check it out.

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Just as long as the geocachers don't take the flowers off and leave a Happy Meal toy ;)

Once again, I am trying to laugh inaudibly at work and am faintly snorting . . .

LMHO (silently)

KuKu

Here's another perspective on cemetery letterboxes. We once visited a letterbox (Sacramento, CA--if I recall correctly) that was located in an old historic cemetery--but it was one of those quirkly types of cemeteries where the plots were also garden plots (community P-Patch type of thing) that various groups could adopt and decorate as they saw fit. There were picnic tables, BBQ grills and other interesting things in amongst the plots and people were encouraged to spend time there participating in these different activities. When you think of the different decorative styles that were there, recall images of cars adorned with kitschy plastic barbie heads, bicycle reflectors, styrofoam insulation or toy dinosaurs. Yep, that's what it was like. The decorative styles ran the gamut from classical/traditional stone masonry, scrolled wrought iron, marble sculptures all the way to modern kitsch and everything in between. I think we even saw old used musical instruments half buried in the ground. It was so unexpected it was really a delight to explore. The cemetery even had its own historical society attached to it and even a museum (that wasn't opened when we were there). Had it not been for the letterbox there, we'd never have had any idea that that cemetery existed--it was really interesting!

Personally growing up we NEVER visited cemeteries unless it was to attend a funeral. It was so rare that we'd go to a cemetery that it was almost a scary place to go because we only associated it with death, dying and tears--but since letterboxing has led us to so many interesting historical cemeteries and other unique sites, that 'scary mystique' that often looms over a cemetery has long since been replaced with a reverent respect for the location and the reminders of so many folks whose steps on Earth have long ago been silenced. I hope that our visits to these cemeteries have instilled in my children a similar respect for others, the preciousness of life and that dying is in fact part of life.

Just another perspective on the issue I suppose,

daelphinus

I guess I have to weigh in on this one. I enjoy visiting cemeteries and there are some large, well visited ones where I live in Atlanta. Someone spoke of the "cemetary garden" concept of the 18th and 19th centuries, and that's what I think as well. Cemetaries were the first public parks, as most large strolling-gardens belonged to the wealthy and were kept behind walls. These cemetaries with trails, lakes, grassy areas, etc. became gathering areas for the less-wealthy public during those centuries: Recreational parks! I think the large, park-like cemetaries are perfectly appropriate for boxing that's respectful and neat. There are people who do graphite rubbings of carvings they find interesting. Others enjoy looking at dates and names, or hunting historical figures. Cemetaries aren't just burial grounds, they are records of local culture and history. I think boxes that draw attention to that history or culture are particularly appropriate as they create a reverence and/or appreciation for the person who is hunting. I have enjoyed the boxes I've found in local historical cemetaries, and have two that are not inside a cemetary, but require a walk through or by one as part of the historical information in the clues.

As for walking on graves, well it does seem irreverent, even though I suspect the feeling comes from the old supersition that bringing dirt from a grave into your home brings death with it... Usually there is enough room between grave not to walk over them!

I have planted 2 cemetery boxes. One is is a old park like setting; the other is very old with many of my ancestors. One is not disturbing any plots and you can get to it without superstitiously stepping over dead people. The other one is in a bush beside my grandparents' plot. They would be thrilled to know that their grandchildren are genealogists and come to visit them. After attending 2 funerals within a month this year, I've decided that now is the time to use my gps to get plot coordinates. A hundred years from now our descendents may thank us for it (oops, another topic).

As far as cemeteries are concerned, they don't spook me. We've heard how different the comfort levels are among our group. It's been voiced, but my first reaction was ... Arlington National Cemetery should be the solemnest place in the nation, but I dare speak of the disrespect I've seen from the Tourists on Parade. The only time I've felt a little uncomfortable visiting the dead was when I was in the former USSR and our group waited for hours to file past the body of Lenin. How do you tell people, "I don't want to go"? You were made to feel it was an obligation to see this "site/attraction/etc." That was creepy, imho.

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The only time I've felt a little uncomfortable visiting the dead was when I was in the former USSR and our group waited for hours to file past the body of Lenin. How do you tell people, "I don't want to go"? You were made to feel it was an obligation to see this "site/attraction/etc." That was creepy, imho.

Yep, I agree with you on this count. We were 'forced' to visit him, too--back in 1984. Same sentiments from me. We almost had to do the same thing with Mao Tse Tung again last year in Beijing but thank goodness it was closed the day we went to Tiananmen Square.

daelphinus

You know, as for stepping on the graves....in most cemeteries, especially the National Cemeteries that are park-like, like Calverton out here on the Island, that have the head plates IN the ground. In order to see the names of the deceased, you kind of have to be standing on top of them, unless you want to crook your head at a weird angle.....

...besides, we're not really stepping on them at all...I think that comes from a time when we weren't sealed in coffins and cement vaults. But superstitions stay...and believe me, I find myself saying "excuse me" sometimes, too.

Then again....there is that scene from 'Carrie'........

Cemeterys don't spook me either, usually. When my daughter was just barely two we were looking for a box in the local pioneer cemetery. My daughter saw one particular grave that had a little wooden border around it. She walked over, sat down leaning against the headstone, folded her hands and WOULD NOT MOVE! I tried to talk her out of there, bribe her with finding the box, picking apples, told her we were leaving, joined her for a while and then tried to get her to leave with me, everything. After 20 minutes or so I finally picked her up and carried her away crying. Now THAT was creepy!

Wild Rose

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In order to see the names of the deceased, you kind of have to be standing on top of them, unless you want to crook your head at a weird angle.

I think of it like they are sleeping on the ground. If you were with a bunch of campers sleeping on the ground you wouldn't stand on their chest to talk to them. Or maybe you would....:) To me it's just respecting the dead not a superstition.

Shiloh

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My daughter saw one particular grave that had a little wooden border around it. She walked over, sat down leaning against the headstone, folded her hands and WOULD NOT MOVE! I tried to talk her out of there, bribe her with finding the box, picking apples, told her we were leaving, joined her for a while and then tried to get her to leave with me, everything. After 20 minutes or so I finally picked her up and carried her away crying. Now THAT was creepy!

Oh, I don't know. I think maybe you just need to change your perspective. It seems to me that maybe your daughter was showing the ultimate respect for the dead. ;-) Heck, if someone chose to do that over my grave after I'm gone, I'd feel honored.

This has been a really interesting thread, and I've appreciated the different view points. I lived (until I was 9 years old) 1/2 block from a graveyard, and that was where we played (in an era when kids could run around the neighborhood by themselves...). The main area where we played was an open part that didn't have graves - but we ran up and down the roads, and there was a historical grave that had benches and trees and that was a resting place. And that's what it was made for - the people buried there had been there for a loooooooooong time - no immediate family in the area. There were a lot of young families in the area, and it was a great place to walk. We were always respectful of funerals, though.

To this day, I still like graveyards - I think about the people there and based on when they were born, and died, you can guess some of their life events (WWI, WWII, etc). There's a historical cemetary in our area, and it's interesting as well. (There's also some letterboxes there - you know who you are ;-)). I had never set foot in the place before we went letterboxing there, but I have plans to go back and explore some more (maybe plant something as well ;-)).

I've been to the cemetaries in Normady France, from the D-Day Invasion, and they are very awe inspiring. It was a life changing event for me - all those crosses. I'm sure Arlington evokes a similar reponse. I don't know that I could plant a letterbox in a military cemetary because of that - but I think the loss of life from a battle brings more of a sense of tragedy to me, more so than a "regular" cemetary. After all - everyone dies, it's part of life. I look at a cemetary as a chance to think about and celebrate the lives of those buried there, however, I respect it as a place to mourn as well. A close friend lost her mother to suicide when she was a teenager. Her mother was cremated, and the ashes scattered at the ocean. My friend told me many times she wished there was a grave or something remembering her mom - for her sake, as a physical "something" to remember her mother.

Personally, when I'm six feet under, people can picnic on me if they want - as long as they are having fun!!!

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing their views - I'll keep them in mind when planting in a cemetary. Sorry to drone on so long - the thread had me thinking (always a dangerous pastime ;-)).

Mama Fox

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Her mother was cremated, and the ashes scattered at the ocean. My friend told me many times she wished there was a grave or something remembering her mom

You might let your friend know what my friend does. My friend, Angela, has been well trained by her grandparents and mother to tend relatives' graves and clean them, bring flowers, etc, especially on Memorial Day.

Having lived in the past extremely far from my home town, it made me feel good that Angela would tend my mother's grave.

Angela's stepfather was cremated and his ashes were scattered in an ocean bay here in Oregon.

Every year, Angela collects flowers from hers and other peoples' gardens and takes the flower petals to the bay. She times it with the tides and scatters the flowers on the outgoing tide to remember her stepfather. She has done this for 20 years.

Maybe that can help your friend. If not, maybe she could create something to visit to remember her mother.

Thanks so much to this thread.

KuKu

Having planted numerous boxes for the night gathering here in Georgia, I teach my kids to have respect for any graveyard. I think that you can hide boxes in and around graveyards without disturbing it. We did - many times. Ideally, you don't trample the woods when you hide there, (unlike our Geocache friends :-( ), so a graveyard should be treated with the same respect. I have taught them not to show any sign of disrespect to the dead who are buried there. I don't believe we should just trample all over the graves even though I do believe that the dead truly aren't there but in heaven with Jesus. It's just about respect.

In May 2005, the South Carolina state House passed a bill that would prevent geocaches and letterboxes from being planted in a cemetery, historic or archaeological site, or property publicly identified by a historical marker, without written permission, and subject to a $100 fine or 30 days imprisonment. The bill went on to the state Senate, but I couldn't find any updates to it after that.

I doubt that this will be the last effort to legislate letterboxing, and see this as a warning sign that people should be extra careful in their choice of locations when it comes to cemeteries and historical sites.

SD

<<<<<In May 2005, the South Carolina state House passed a bill that would prevent geocaches and letterboxes from being planted in a cemetery, historic or archaeological site, or property publicly identified by a historical marker, without written permission, and subject to a $100 fine or 30 days imprisonment. The bill went on to the state Senate, but I couldn't find any updates to it after that.


You mean they actually named geocaches and letterboxes?????

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What needs to be kept in mind is how it is presented. Most of us love a moment of fame when our name is mentioned in the newspaper for something or we get a little write up on Mark's blog featuring our box, etc. I'd love it if my name was preserved in a clue somewhere (even if it was just a landmark to a new location), but I wouldn't like it if it was associated with something degrading. I don't feel a tastefully planted box, with lovely artwork and a location designed to remember our past is degrading in the least.

Well said.

Meem

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You mean they actually named geocaches and letterboxes?????

Yep, they named them specifically! I remember when SD mentioned this on the main LbNA list last year.

Knit Wit

Here's my .02....
It seems that common sense and putting ourselves in the mind set of potential hunters are where we need to focus. There is so much to learn from cemeteries, but each one is different. If the cemetery is maintained by a church or a city, it generally welcomes visitors. So if a box is placed with respect and common sense and in the area, but not in a stone wall or an area that can potentially be damaged, it is appreciated and "safe" for the area. The higher f-count restriction may be helpful.
But, I will say in regards to archeological sites (I am a trained archeologist)-most people do not realize that EVERY artifact is important in some way and in picking up "an arrowhead", they may be removing an important piece of "the puzzle". Even removing surface collections can damage a site for future investigations.
When visiting a historical or prehistorical area and you come accross an artifact, you should not remove it, but should notify an appropriate authority in your area. This is not to say that you certainly can visit an area with respect, follow any rules that have been set up, and you will learn a lot about history and prehistory of an area. I am all about folks learning more about our valued cultural resources and part of that is the importance of respecting such sites. Definately, don't cross lines or fences where any active investigation is going on and walk, run around, or pick up stuff.....
Just use common sense. If planting in a historical area or cemetary, be sure to leave a little background with your clues so we can all learn something! You may not want to mention that "local legend says a chest full of gold coins is buried here..."!!
I like cemetaries and hope planting around them will continue to be a positive experience-just stay respectful!!
Maybe that was .04......