Quote

Just because there might not be consequences does not mean it is right to take someone's work and vision and use it in a manner they might not approve or without proper attribution.

A particular example here might be enlightening. I planted a box in Crystal River, FL called "Martin the Marlin". I found the basis for the stamp image on a sign for a construction firm here in Tallahassee. I pilfered it shamelessly -- I walked into the office and picked up a business card. I considered trying to explain to the secretary what I intended to use it for, but it was apparent that it would just be a waste of everyone's time.

I scanned the business card for the image. Then I edited it a little bit, not so much to disguise it but rather because I thought the image could use some improvement! And, of course, I planted it two hours' drive outside of the Tallahassee area.

Since then, I've seen the exact same image perhaps a half dozen times, in ads for different businesses in different places. Evidently it's a bit of clip art or something, public domain -- or else a dreadful lot of people are stealing it!

Those who have found my "Wanderings" box know how special the stamp and the place is. The stamp is a rubber stamp rendition of the sign on the storefront as well as the letterhead on their stationery. I asked the proprietor for a good clean copy for making the stamp, and she said "I'll do better than that, I'll show you the original". She then told me the story. She had a different sign when she first opened, same idea but nowhere near as impressive. One day some old codger walked into her store and up to her counter and said "Your sign sucks! Here, lemme draw you a better one!" He took a pencil and a piece of typewriter paper, and right there at the checkout counter drew a truly excellent graphic in two minutes. Then he handed it to her and walked out.

It took me a week to carve that stamp!

Quote

Those who have found my "Wanderings" box know how special the stamp and the place is. The stamp is a rubber stamp rendition of the sign on the storefront as well as the letterhead on their stationery. I asked the proprietor for a good clean copy for making the stamp, and she said "I'll do better than that, I'll show you the original". She then told me the story. She had a different sign when she first opened, same idea but nowhere near as impressive. One day some old codger walked into her store and up to her counter and said "Your sign sucks! Here, lemme draw you a better one!" He took a pencil and a piece of typewriter paper, and right there at the checkout counter drew a truly excellent graphic in two minutes. Then he handed it to her and walked out.

That is a great story!!! Now I'm going to go check your logbook to see where that plant is - I gotta find it ;-))

Mama Fox

Why can't we put non-atlasquest members in those boxes when putting new clues online?

How about a for instance:

You create a box and give author credit to MonkeyDude, someone who does not have an account on Atlas Quest.

Later, someone creates an account named MonkeyDude. They should then be able to edit the box, right? After all, they are the authors of it!

But what if it's some stranger on the opposite coast who happens to create that account? Even worse, what if it's someone who looked for your box and thought it was terrible, and decided to do the world a "favor" by creating a MonkeyDude account then deleting the box?

No, you don't want non-AQ members being able to take credit for boxes. Bad things could happen. =)

-- Ryan

I don't know who this monkeydude is but he sounds like a jerk.

Mr. Yuk

SO is it ok to use any of the free clip art sites that are out there to make a image for a stamp to carve, or should I be asking for permission to use them as a stamp?

Note to self: Do not read Mr. Yuk posts with mouth full of coffee!

MOST clip art is sold (and given away) with a Royalty-Free License, which means that once you buy it or get it for free, the original artist has no more right to it than a sturgeon has to its roe. And people pay dearly for that (why, I don't know... bleccchh).

Royalty-free licensing does not apply the same way to photography, because the companies that pay the photographer for it can restrict its use from certain mediums, most notably book covers.

If you want to use your moral compass when you consider what you're going to carve in a rubber stamp that's going to be tucked in a box and hidden in the woods and seen by a few select people, that's your prerogative. I wouldn't call it stealing because there was no harm done by it. The artist didn't lose money or royalties... and in some cases, they may actually benefit from it... and even then they'll probably never know.

But this whole question was about copyright infringement, which only applies if you are somehow profiting monetarily from the use of the artwork that was not issued with a royalty-free license or are promoting something else that could profit from it.

Quote

But this whole question was about copyright infringement, which only applies if you are somehow profiting monetarily from the use of the artwork that was not issued with a royalty-free license or are promoting something else that could profit from it.

Actually, I think there are at least two more concerns with copyright infringement. First is if you are depriving the proper owner of profits, regardless of whether or not you made any. Taking artwork that he has for sale and giving it away for free, for example.

The other concern is when you effectively slander the proper owner of the image. For example, if you use a copyrighted image associated with a reputable company for some scandalous or immoral use, they can (and will!) sue you for that even if you made no profit.

Still, none of these situations apply to using an image for a stamp for a letterbox (I hope!). Now, if you used a copyrighted image to carve a stamp and then tried to sell the stamp on EBay, you might be in trouble.

Quote

Why can't we put non-atlasquest members in those boxes when putting new clues online?

I think sometimes people get so used to the bells and whistles of AQ that they forget that they can put whatever information they want to in the clues.

Still, none of these situations apply to using an image for a stamp for a letterbox (I hope!). Now, if you used a copyrighted image to carve a stamp and then tried to sell the stamp on EBay, you might be in trouble.
________________

ASK THE ARTIST BEFORE DOWNLOADING/COPYING HIS OR HER WORK! Please, it is NOT that hard to email them on their website and ask for permission, explain what you are doing and ASK- then include a link to their website in your clues. They will probably be surprised and delighted to hear about how much you like their work, and would appreciate any "free" publicity when you mention you used their art in your clues. A friend of mine did this with an image she used of a heron and not only was the artist delighted but she turned him on to a new hobby.

Asking permission has nothing to do with monetary gain, profits, slandering etc. It is COMMON COURTESY to ask if you are copying someone's artwork. Please be courteous, don't give letterboxing a bad name! I have never been so embarrassed to hear of all this talk of stealing other's art, copying it, "well as long as we aren't selling it..." These poor artists are trying to make a living at what they love and you don't have any qualms about stealing it and passing it off as your own in a letterbox! Shame on you!

Trailhoundz

If I have purchased a book, then the author/illustrator has been paid for their efforts, assuming the publisher is honest. If I then tear out a page from the book, frame it, and stick it on my wall, I am not stealing from the artist. Defacing a book, yeah. (Evil, bad Ish! No biscuit!) Reasonable use is involved.

So I find it very hard to argue that taking that same book and tracing the art to make my stamp constitutes stealing. Certainly I should cite the artist if I know their identity. Considering how much alteration their art experiences in the transfer and carving, I honestly don't believe in most cases it's still the same piece. I have a tendency to remove or replace significant lines as I carve. (Did I say intentionally? Hush, you) It's rather like claiming I shouldn't use the letter A despite the fact that my particular handwriting makes it radically unlike the original font.

Yes, an artist deserves to be recognized. Yes, they deserve to make a living off their work. Yes, I'm more prone to using clip art that's in the public domain.

No, I'm not going to refuse to stamp an image that *might* be someone else's concept. Sorry, just not that paranoid.