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Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21220 by Team MooseTracks
May 1, 2006 12:17am
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Quote I wonder how many parks I've been to recently that I never would have gone if it wasn't for a letterbox in the area.


Ditto here. There are a lot of great parks I've been to that I wouldn't even have HEARD about if it hadn't been a letterbox planted there.

They must have REALLY had to pull out all the stops to find a regulation to prohibit boxes there. You have to really be looking for a regulation to warp that one into fitting the bill.

I bet it would be pretty interesting to find out what was edited out of the regulation that was stated. It would also be interesting to find out if anything like orienteering or something similar has ever been done in the park that pulled the boxes.
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21226 by Pied Piper
May 1, 2006 5:11am
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Ryan,
They are both boxes in this series:
Scooter Visits New Manchester

Scooter's Mom is the placer. I bet she will be sad to hear the news and we are as well since we haven't found these yet.

I wonder how many GA State park annual passes have been purchased by letterboxers who had never purchased them before.

Eli
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21228 by Eli and Aubrey
May 1, 2006 5:49am
Board
At least the official policy implies is that it is ultimately up to the park manager to decide if they will allow the "non traditional" activities and to what extent. So there is always hope in Scooter's Mom asking when she picks them up to see if there is a better location still in the park for them to be planted. I know I tried that approach with the confiscated Skidaway Island box in Savannah.

I did not get to meet with the park manager since she was out of town while I was there but we did trade some emails and she said she thought boxing or caching is a 'great hobby for people to get out and enjoy' but wanted to make sure placing them were 'in line with the goals and vision of the park'. Since I have not been down that way since September I have not followed up any further on this. *makes note to self to do just that, soon*
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21230 by Eidolon
May 1, 2006 6:38am
Board
I have several boxes in state parks here in Georgia. I do know they frown on it, but I don't think my boxes are bothering anyone. They are very close to trailside and finders don't have to trapse through the woods to get to them. I just wrote my clues in code so that they cannot be found if the parks service does a search. If they want to work hard enough to figure out the clue, then at least I didn't just tell them right where to go take it from.

Desi
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21228 by Eli and Aubrey
May 1, 2006 9:44am
Board
Quote They are both boxes in this series:
Scooter Visits New Manchester


Ah, well, that explains why I couldn't find the boxes on AQ. =) The park ranger only told me the names of the individual boxes of the series rather than the series name, and when I did a search with the name of the park in the clue it also didn't help because the park's name wasn't in the clue at all.

For awhile, I was thinking maybe the boxes were listed on LbNA, but I couldn't find them there either and I got scratching my head--where the heck ARE these clues listed?!

-- Ryan
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21243 by The Wolf Family
May 1, 2006 9:58am
Board
Quote
Quote and when I did a search with the name of the park in the clue it also didn't help because the park's name wasn't in the clue at all.


That's rather disturbing-- it makes you wonder how they found the box at all!


My thoughts exactly. I just read the clues - and it doesn't seem like these were boxes you'd stumble over unless you were looking for them??

MM/123Family
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21228 by Eli and Aubrey
May 1, 2006 12:08pm
Board
Quote Scooter's Mom is the placer. I bet she will be sad to hear the news and we are as well since we haven't found these yet. Eli


I just learned that I didn't have Letterboxing Georgia checked as a favorite board. I thought I did, but wasn't getting the posts about the New Manchester boxes. :( I did get several emails about it today and want to thank everyone for letting me know. I called the park but the ranger wasn't in and the person who answered the phone didn't know anything about it. I left a message for him to call me and will be going out as soon as possible to either talk them into letting me replant them somewhere else in the park or at least get them back. I'll let you know what happens.

Quote I wonder how many GA State park annual passes have been purchased by letterboxers who had never purchased them before.


We bought our first annual pass last April while out letterboxing.
Scooters Mom
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21251 by Scooters Mom
May 1, 2006 12:43pm
Board
I called the 'GA DNR Division of State Parks & Historic Sites' back in Nov.

John Thompson
GA State Parks
(404) 656-6564

After explaining letterboxing, I was given permission to plant in any state park. The only restriction is that you must let the park manager know that you are planting in his park.



And for the record, check this out:
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl?code=12-3-10

GA Code 12-3-10(n) states that 'NO ELECTRONIC DEVICE' can be used to search for hidden treasure.

It doesn't say anything about a compass!

GA Code 12-3-10(c) states that no person may 'mark on, deface, injure, displace, dig, excavate, remove, or construct on any real or personal property on any park, historic site, or recreational area, except when done with special written permission granted by the commissioner of natural resources or his authorized representative.

It says nothing about hiding! Okay, so maybe we are displacing some leaves and sticks, so what.

When you do speak with the park manager, you might also suggest he browse through the logbook to see where people have come from to visit this park because of the letterbox. I came from Griffin, more than an hour away.

I'm getting off my high horse now,
castles16
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21254 by castles16
May 1, 2006 1:08pm
Board
Good work on getting the information for everyone.

I may just have forward this to Ms. Holdsworth at Skidaway then have the next person going that way get and rehide the box.
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21251 by Scooters Mom
May 1, 2006 1:27pm
Board
I have purchased them the last two years in a row. Army Corps of Engineers too! I'd say we bring in a good amount to the parks system.

CR
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21243 by The Wolf Family
May 1, 2006 1:53pm
Board
They probably found them by googling "new manchester" letterbox, like I just did. The AQ listing was first or second in the results.

Maybe they found one of them accidentally and checked to see if there were others. The reservoir box was last found on Friday.

Man, that stinks. It looks like a great place to take the kids but we won't be going there now unless there are boxes. Lithia Springs is nowhere close to anywhere we usually go when we're in GA. :(

Knit Wit
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21219 by Green Tortuga
May 1, 2006 1:57pm
Board
Quote R&R #391-5-1-.06(10)


I couldn't find anything on this one. I have no idea what it is. The closest I could come is:

http://gastateparks.org/net/content/item.aspx?s=58004.0.1.5
and
http://gastateparks.org/net/content/item.aspx?s=14493.0.1.5

The former refers to public use facilities, the latter just reiterates the GA code about not using electronic devices. I still don't see how either would apply to letterboxing.

castles16
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21264 by knit wit
May 1, 2006 1:59pm
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Maybe they recognized the pic in the clue, I did.

castles16
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21254 by castles16
May 1, 2006 3:24pm
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I wrote a "polite" email to the people in charge of parks and rec. in that area and let them know what letterboxing brings to their parks and what disallowing boxing takes away.
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21266 by castles16
May 4, 2006 7:36am
Board
Maybe they recognized the pic in the clue, I did.

castles16
I think castles16 is right! I knew the spot from the pic but had not been out that way yet :( now I most likely will not!
I agree with drgdlg use code and make them work for it if they want to remove it from the park.....wounder if any geocaches are there?
Darn it!! rex
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21226 by Pied Piper
May 4, 2006 7:42am
Board
Ditto here. There are a lot of great parks I've been to that I wouldn't even have HEARD about if it hadn't been a letterbox planted there.


I agree!! Boxing has taken me to so many places I never even knew about! one of the main reasons I love it so! :) t rex
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21219 by Green Tortuga
May 4, 2006 4:17pm
Board
>>>Ga. Code 12-3-10(b), R&R #391-5-1-.06(10) reads…<<<

>>>I bet it would be pretty interesting to find out what was edited out of the regulation that was stated<<<

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl?code=12-3-10

It looks like this law 12-3-10(b) simply says that you have to obey the rules written by the state park department, which are found here:

http://rules.sos.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/page.cgi?g=GEORGIA_DEPARTMENT_OF_NATURAL_RESOURCES%2FHISTORIC_PRESERVATION%2FSTATE_PARKS_AND_HISTORIC_SITES_SYSTEM%2Findex.html&d=1

It took one heck of a search to finally find this (because I missed noydb’s note earlier), but there it is. A Google search didn’t produce this directly. I went through a link to some news article announcing a change in some other park rule and played with the links within that article for find the overall rules page. Someone should suggest to these guys that it might be easier to obey an obscure regulation if it’s posted in a location other than the manager’s desk. I can’t think of a legitimate reason why these rules aren’t linked through an easy to find page on gastateparks.org.

I’ve followed this off and on through caching, because they’ve been dealing with this too. In the past, the parks have cited #391-5-1-.05(16)(a), which pertains to unattended property. Note that both the unattended property rule and the games rule both allow discretion on the part of the site (park) manager. So it may be worth it to apply to the park manager and see what they will allow. I expect that with such a large number of parks and park managers throughout the state, you’ll run into a few a-holes who like to spout off misconceptions and say no, a few superstars who get our hobby right away and say yes, and reactions in between.

>>>It would also be interesting to find out if anything like orienteering or something similar has ever been done in the park that pulled the boxes.<<<

http://www.pbase.com/searchnk9/image/11278947

Here is a picture of me participating in an orienteering meet in Sweetwater Creek. If I hadn’t sucked so badly that weekend, I would have linked some results too ;>. Georgia Orienteering gets in under the Special Event rules in #391-5-1-.05(12), plus they have a long standing relationship of mutual respect in working with the state parks that predates letterboxing in the US. Sweetwater Creek hosted a national level event in 2003 and will host another in 2007, with plenty of local events along the way.

>>>and when I did a search with the name of the park in the clue it also didn't help because the park's name wasn't in the clue at all<<<
>>>That's rather disturbing-- it makes you wonder how they found the box at all!<<<

It’s somewhere between amusing and insulting to think that it’s somehow hard for a park staff member to figure out if a letterbox may be in their park. Most park rangers can actually read and write. In this case, the title of the series had a prominent landmark of the park in the name and it was posted on lb.org under the correct county and town.

I’ll go so far as to suggest that a randomly picked group of ten park rangers can figure out the same number of mysteries as a randomly selected group of ten letterboxers, which makes suggestions like typing a park name backwards equally silly, at least in terms of hiding a listing from a certain park staff. Obviously there are other techniques, such as a hard puzzle (no one finds it, park staff nor letterboxers), or WOM (hope the wrong person doesn’t get the W).

>>>...wonder if any geocaches are there?<<<

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?lat=33.7531&lon=-84.629283

Here is a search page centered on the park office. The answer is TWO. One is a virtual cache, which means you go to the latitude and longitude and answer the trivia question based on what’s at that location (in this case, an eagle scout project). With no physical objects left behind, the park staff couldn’t prevent that one under any park rule, although such virtual/trivia caches are no longer allowed under gc.com’s rules. The second cache is sitting on the counter of the park office. Obviously, that’s pretty easy to find, so the puzzle is to go to three locations in the park and find the numerical answers to the questions provided (in other words, three more virtual caches). The answers form the combination of the lock on the ammo can that is the actual cache. Obviously, that one has permission of the park manager.

The fact that a cache in the office is the only thing that this park manager would approve doesn’t bode well for a letterbox in Sweetwater. If the stamp really really relates well to Sweetwater, you might consider duplicating the cache, by describing a hike that leads to some numerical answers that would work for a combination lock.

One other thing about cachers. Except for Connecticut, geocaching groups are ahead of letterboxing groups in matters of park permission, regulations, and relationships. With the larger number of geocachers and geocaches, they’ve simply covered most of the ground faster than letterboxers have. I would expect that geocachers have approached most every state park in Georgia to see which parks will allow these hobbies, and which parks won’t. It might be worth it for some of you local letterboxers to join the local caching group (I’ve met a couple of them, they are not evil, and I’m not suggesting that you are required to actually look for a geocache if you don’t want to), and see what info or help they have to offer.

Enough for now. See you in the logs soon.

Mike
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21524 by Maphead Mike
May 6, 2006 6:24pm
Board
One other thing about cachers. Except for Connecticut, geocaching groups are ahead of letterboxing groups in matters of park permission, regulations, and relationships. With the larger number of geocachers and geocaches, they’ve simply covered most of the ground faster than letterboxers have. I would expect that geocachers have approached most every state park in Georgia to see which parks will allow these hobbies, and which parks won’t. It might be worth it for some of you local letterboxers to join the local caching group (I’ve met a couple of them, they are not evil, and I’m not suggesting that you are required to actually look for a geocache if you don’t want to), and see what info or help they have to offer.

Enough for now. See you in the logs soon.

Huh? might be a good idea! :)
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21776 by T REX
May 6, 2006 7:48pm
Board
Quote One other thing about cachers. Except for Connecticut, geocaching groups are ahead of letterboxing groups in matters of park permission, regulations, and relationships. With the larger number of geocachers and geocaches, they’ve simply covered most of the ground faster than letterboxers have. I would expect that geocachers have approached most every state park in Georgia to see which parks will allow these hobbies, and which parks won’t.


After playing telephone tag with Vince at Sweetwater, I asked the woman on the phone when he would be in and she said Saturday at 1:00. At 12:59 we walked in the visitor center and asked for Vince. There was a death in his family and he wouldn't be in but his assistant would be in soon. We chatted with the volunteer, talking about letterboxing and how many places we never would have known about otherwise. He mentioned orienteering and showed us an ammo box with a padlock on the COUNTER. Painted right on the side was OFFICIAL GEOCACHE.

Vince's assistant came in and said our boxes were pulled because they didn't have proper authorization. When we asked what we need to do, he said he didn't know and we had to talk to Vince about it. Our Manchester boxes are now at home with us, waiting until we talk to Vince.

It was still a good day because on the way home we got 5 nice boxes in Smyrna, all planted by Cat.
Scooters Mom
Re: Illegal "Gaming"
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21779 by Scooters Mom
May 29, 2006 1:09pm
Board
The rules vary widely, from state to state, (we're up here in the Tri-State corner of TN/GA/AL) and within a state according to park management.

It is true due to sheer volume of participants, geocachers are farther along with park rules, permissions, etc with regard to state parks and national wilderness areas. The locked ammo box in the visitor center is fairly common, and geocachers are using that as a first-step, better-than-nothing approach to many state parks.

Here's a couple of park-specific current views.

Ft. Mountain State Park: Caches/LBs OK -- notify park personnel of where.
Cloudland Canyon SP: Definitely not, no way, don't even think about it.

Other current information, from the GA Geocaching website:

DO ask for permission to place a cache.
One of the main things you should do is ask for permission to place any traditional physical cache. You should contact landowners, city or county governments and state or national park offices. Some areas already allow caches.

WHO does allows caches at this time?
This list does not cover all areas by any means, but Cobb County and Gwinnett County in Metro Atlanta have been contacted and allow caches. We hope other county and local city governments will allow caches in the future. For example, local cachers have contacted the city of Roswell and the city of Powder Springs and received permission to place their cache. Let us know if you have success and we will add them to this list.

The GGA has worked with the Georgia State Parks and Recreation Department regarding a policy recognizing Geocaching as an approved activity within Georgia State Parks. We have been given a policy which states that you must ask for permission from the individual Park Supervisor and approval of the cache is at the Supervisor's discretion. If a cache is placed in a GA State Park without permission it will be archived and you will have to remove it from the park. Several caches have been placed in GA State Parks based on the new guidelines!

The Chicopee Woods Nature Preserve, or the Elachee Nature Center, only allows 7 Geocaches in the park. All caches must be approved by the Preserve Manager. This preserve is near Gainesville, GA. There is more detailed information regarding that park here in our GGA Forums. Currently the park has 7 caches and is closed to new caches.

Contact the GGA for more information about GA State Parks and Elachee.
http://www.ggaonline.org

Hope this helps!

Team Bear-Cat
Re: Illegal "Gaming" WORKAROUND
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #21267 by noydb
Jun 1, 2006 8:51pm
Board
Quote "We will be having no frivolity in this here park!"


Hahahaaa! For some reason the image of the Louisiana Sheriff in the James Bond flicks, "Live and Let Die" and "The Man with the Golden Gun" popped into my head as I read this. Hilarious.

Of course, there's always a way to be having frivolity... Word Of Mouth clues. I'll be happy to send you the clues to the "protest" boxes I've got planned for that park via email, but you've got to prove who you are first... and you have to contact me via AQ mail... and you have to have your profile updated. Just checking references...

(In thought, this is probably why clues to letterboxes on Dartmoor are so closely guarded - so nefarious nay-sayers and people who just want to spoil everyone else's fun can't go and scoop up all the boxes...)

There are a lot of strange laws and codes on the books... who are they supposed to protect? Us from ourselves? Or the government from us? Spooky...

StarSaels
Re: Illegal "Gaming" WORKAROUND
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #25040 by BrewHiker
Jun 1, 2006 9:45pm
Board
Quote "We will be having no frivolity in this here park!"


LOL funny... I distinctly heard "Barney Fife" say this, as I was reading it....

(got to nip it.. nip it in the bud... nip it nip it nip it...)
Re: Illegal "Gaming" WORKAROUND
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #25046 by Alyson Wonderland
Jun 1, 2006 10:37pm
Board
Quote "We will be having no frivolity in this here park!"

LOL funny... I distinctly heard "Barney Fife" say this, as I was reading it....


Or, perhaps, Foghorn Leghorn:

I say, I say, I say, BOY! We will be having NO frivolity this here park!

SS
Re: Illegal "Gaming" WORKAROUND
Board: State: Georgia
Reply to: #25046 by Alyson Wonderland
Jun 2, 2006 10:03am
Board
Quote LOL funny... I distinctly heard "Barney Fife" say this, as I was reading it....

(got to nip it.. nip it in the bud... nip it nip it nip it...)


so what does it say about the things I watch when the first voice that popped into my head was Jackie Gleason from the Smokey and the Bandit series and the second was that warden from the movie Cool Hand Luke? "What we have here, boy, is a failure to communicate!"

Knit Wit