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Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 5:23pm
Board
To protect your positive and tenous relationship i would pull all those planted inappropriately. Could give you more cred with the park and it is the right thing to do. We had a similar problem years ago in Harpers Ferry. The NPS actively went after them. Good luck with this quest.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 5:29pm
Board
Has it occurred to you that the people who have planted boxes in the New River Gorge area are not aware of a policy such as the one you describe?

We planted a box there yesterday, and we're assuming that's what triggered your post. We reviewed the NPS web site for the New River Gorge National River and checked the park's published policies including the superintendent's compendium. No prohibition of letterboxes (or geocaches) was mentioned that we could locate. If you know where to find this rule on the park web site, please post a link.

You say "it's known not to plant there," but how can one know there's a prohibition if it is not publicized by the park? Is this a rule that the rangers themselves have adopted on their own?

Thanks for any links you can provide to the publication of this official policy.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969103 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 6:02pm
Board
i would pull all those planted inappropriately

That would just create a larger problem when people can't find the box they're looking for, because they'll spend more time searching, and if the location is delicate that could lead to greater damage. What is your goal? Making sure everyone follows rules? Or is the goal to make sure nothing is damaged in the park? If it's the latter, then never remove a box until the listing is first removed.

Also, is the box in an area where it could cause actual damage? I'd respond to a box that leads to people crushing a delicate alpine zone differently than a box planted in the middle of a forest. One is a technical rule breaking issue and the other is causing actual harm. It's the difference between driving 56 mph in a 55 zone (a violation of state law for which you can be fined) vs someone driving hazardously at 110 mph.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969104 by Road Junkies
Dec 5, 2018 6:05pm
Board
To anyone who assumes that their fellow letterboxers are willfully violating rules and acting against the best interests of the letterboxing community and natural areas, please give people the benefit of the doubt until you find out the rest of the story.

Can't we all just get along?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969093 by Sagacorn
Dec 5, 2018 6:30pm
Board
It can be hard to remain ethical when others are doing wrong.

Disagree. Wrong is wrong. If the park supervisors find out about the illegal boxes it makes it harder for those of us trying to get them legally accepted.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969106 by Rodney King
Dec 5, 2018 6:37pm
Board
By emailing the planter and letting them know it's not allowed, you're not accusing them of anything. You're just letting them know. I say when in doubt, email the planter, but then, if they don't respond correctly, take whatever steps you feel appropriate.

And in response to knowing, I feel like anything that says National on it is out. I just avoid it like the plague.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969108 by PiggyJaunt
Dec 5, 2018 7:09pm
Board
At one time, apparently most NPS properties did discourage letterboxing. As evidenced here, that is no longer a blanket NPS policy.

https://www.nps.gov/teachers/classrooms/letterboxing.htm

So in the absence of a stated policy on the park's site, there's no way for a letterboxer to know that planting boxes is prohibited in a particular park.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969108 by PiggyJaunt
Dec 5, 2018 7:27pm
Board
if they don't respond correctly, take whatever steps you feel appropriate.

So ANYBODY can determine if ANYONE ELSE'S response is "correct"? And they can do whatever they want with the box, if the response didn't meet what they wanted it to be?

Sure, I can understand if something is dangerous or poses a threat. Common sense is a wonderful thing. But if someone plants a box, just because you don't agree with the placement does not give you Letterboxing Police Authority.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969106 by Rodney King
Dec 5, 2018 7:28pm
Board
[quote]To anyone who assumes that their fellow letterboxers are willfully violating rules and acting against the best interests of the letterboxing community and natural areas, please give people the benefit of the doubt until you find out the rest of the story.

Can't we all just get along?[/quote]
This is 2018 not the 80’s, anyone who has been in geolocation hobbies for any time at all knows that the NPS is generally a no-no without special permissions. The planters in question have already posted in this thread. If they have that permission they should post “the rest of the story”.

Apparently we can’t all get along. 😉
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969110 by Everybody
Dec 5, 2018 7:31pm
Board
So ANYBODY can determine if ANYONE ELSE'S response is "correct"?

Woohoo!! RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969112 by Anybody
Dec 5, 2018 7:47pm
Board
Has there been a more alias spinning thread than this? Also dibs on the "alias spinning thread" meme.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969113 by Wronghat
Dec 5, 2018 8:05pm
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Has there been a more alias spinning thread than this?

Hmmmm... let me think...
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969113 by Wronghat
Dec 5, 2018 8:15pm
Board
Who? Me?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969104 by Road Junkies
Dec 5, 2018 9:53pm
Board
You have been made aware of the issue by the local planter. Can we agree that it wasn't with ill intent? Based on those assumptions do you have any problem with a local moving the box off NPS property and communicating with you on clue changes?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969117 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 10:05pm
Board
Based on those assumptions do you have any problem with a local moving the box off NPS property and communicating with you on clue changes?

Why? Where is there an indication that LBs are not allowed? As has been pointed out (WITH A LINK), NPS no longer explicitly prohibits them, and it is up to each park to make their own determination. Why remove someone else's box based on "well, maybe someone somewhere has an unwritten and unposted prohibition for this specific park, based on word of mouth"? How does it "look bad" or generate "ill-will", if the rules aren't posted and published?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969117 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 10:11pm
Board
You have been made aware of the issue by the local planter.

And therein lies the conundrum.

The local boxer is "certain" of this policy prohibiting letterboxes yet there is not "official" mention of the policy on any park related listing of policies related to the prohibition of which they speak.

To me, if it isn't in verifiable format, it isn't actually a policy.
::shrug::
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969120 by wassamatta u
Dec 5, 2018 10:19pm
Board
Not the point i'm making Wassa. It was an attempt at resolving with no ill will. Should know better than to attempt resolution on the message board. Suggestion is for local boxer and planter to discuss with an amicable resolution. Apparently wiser privately at this point. I personally welcome plants to our scenic state. But would suggest avoiding the NPS in these parts.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969109 by Road Junkies
Dec 6, 2018 6:43am
Board
It took a little digging, but here is the New River Gorge's guidelines for geocaches. I would assume that they would like letterboxes to be handled in the same way.

https://www.nps.gov/neri/planyourvisit/permit-guidelines-for-gps-based-activities.htm

I hope this helps.

dp
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969131 by dancingpecan
Dec 6, 2018 6:55am
Board
Thank you, dancing pecan. We had followed a link on the site for GPS based activities but it was a dead link that led to a 404 error page. Good detective work!

We will contact the park superintendent and notify him or her that we placed a box there without knowledge of this rule and determine with the superintendent how to proceed.

Thanks again!
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969133 by Road Junkies
Dec 6, 2018 7:26am
Board
You're quite welcome. I'm glad I was able to help. :)

dp
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969098 by Grrly Girl
Dec 9, 2018 7:30am
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What was the Disney decree? (Just curious)
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 9, 2018 10:05am
Board
Oh, I was lucky to read the Burgemeister poem just in time for it to be deleted. Very funny with the link--but it-just-disappeared. I'd love a copy AQ'd to me if possible, can't remember who wrote it.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969214 by Super Hedge Hoggie
Dec 10, 2018 3:44am
Board
What was the Disney decree? (Just curious)

I'm guessing this is the Disney Decree
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969122 by IrishRef
Dec 11, 2018 6:25am
Board
Just to be clear, I have no intention of outing the boxes or pulling them. Live and let live. I was mostly curious about the feelings of people in the area about the subject.

I've tried several times to get the Super of the park to allow LB's and geocaches in the park but to no avail. Mostly due to their staff and not their personal feelings. One was quite receptive to the idea. They control a large portion of the county and practically all the trails so the temptation for me to plant in the park is real.

If you expressed an opinion here, thank you! The discussion has been lively and spirited for sure! If you planted in the park for any reason, it wasn't about you it was a general question. Don't worry, your boxes are safe from me.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 11, 2018 12:37pm
Board
Interesting Thread...

I plant when I want, Where I want, and when I want to.

Carry on,
Mtn Girl