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Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890921 by Elle
Mar 12, 2015 11:23pm
Thread
Oh, you'll still get find notifications in your inbox, and you can always go to the box and read the REAL logbook.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890923 by Kelsung
Mar 12, 2015 11:36pm
Thread
you can always go to the box and read the REAL logbook.

That is if the box is close enough for you to do that and if the logbook hasn't gone missing or gotten wet.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890925 by Elle
Mar 13, 2015 2:42am
Thread
That is if the box is close enough for you to do that and if the logbook hasn't gone missing or gotten wet.

Good point! It certainly removes the motivation to plant boxes while on vacation, particularly in areas one might never get to return to. :-( If you're too far away to check the physical logbook, losing the virtual one is a real blow.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890918 by Kelsung
Mar 13, 2015 5:21am
Thread
So I as a planter can no longer see who has found my boxes

Planters can still see it. I agree that planters should still be able to see everyone who has found one of their boxes. I'm talking about non-planters. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

-- Ryan
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890882 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 5:25am
Thread
There's nothing in any of the listings that a person needs to know in order to letterbox, except the clues. And since when did you start judging features on "well this wasn't available for early letterboxers"? That's usually what other people say, and then YOU say "well just because we didn't have the technology then, doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to use it now...." So that criterion seems to be an odd way of deciding what should be a PM-only perk.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890937 by Sheba
Mar 13, 2015 5:40am
Thread
and then YOU say "well just because we didn't have the technology then, doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to use it now...."

I'm not saying people can't use it now. Just non-premium members. And I know this is going to upset a lot of non-premium members and they'll complain how they need it but my point is--they don't need it. Letterboxing was thriving before that feature even became available.

My biggest mistake was just making the feature available for everyone for free for so long that everyone takes it for granted. If it started as a premium member perk to begin with, nobody would have said boo about it.

So that criterion seems to be an odd way of deciding what should be a PM-only perk.

How should I decide which features should be premium member perks? If features that aren't essential to letterboxing aren't fair game, then what is? The features that are essential?

Of course, I know the answer to that already.... those who aren't premium members would just as soon not see any features that are for premium members only, but that's not going to happen because they're the ones who've kept this website running for years. All of those features you might like that aren't essential for letterboxing were created with the support of premium members--they paid for them. So yes, I think that's a fine way to decide which features should be for premium members only.

-- Ryan
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890939 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 6:31am
Thread
How should I decide which features should be premium member perks? If features that aren't essential to letterboxing aren't fair game, then what is? The features that are essential?

The entire website isn't essential to letterboxing. In fact, no website is. Line drawing debates never end well for those on the wrong side of the line.

If it started as a premium member perk to begin with, nobody would have said boo about it.

Logically, a false statement implies anything. Since its a false statement, tho, its inclusion in the debate doesn't add to it.

those who aren't premium members would just as soon not see any features that are for premium members only

I don't believe this is true. At least it isn't for me. (In fact, I'd like to see _more_ features premium only, such as the counts, diamonds, and hall of fame). I think most non-premium members understand that AQ is in business to monetize the hobby, are ok with that, and understand that the most effective way to do that is to sell premium member perks, ads, and merch. If they had objections to this business model, they would not use the site, and/or would not provide content to it royalty free.

Its much simpler, really. This decision is a price increase without a benefit increase for some people. Just like the ads. There isn't an economist out there who won't say that there will be a brief negative reaction by those affected.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890939 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 6:31am
Thread
I'm having a hard time trying to separate what is actually true and what people are assuming since you've made some changes.

First off, I'm a premium member, so I have all the perks, but I have a friend new to boxing, so I don't want to confuse her by showing her things that are not available to her on her own.

True or False?

1) everyone can see the rows of FFFFs and XXXs and the last found date or ratio, like 12/15.
2) only premium members (P-M) can see the entire list of the finders for ALL boxes and dates found, unless owner has decided to hide this info.
3) everyone can see the list of finders and found dates of their own boxes.
4) only P-M have a total count shown of their boxes Finds and Attempts. This is shown at the bottom of the Finder List.

Thanks for all you do!
~J (glad to be a P-M)
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890882 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 7:00am
Thread
I really liked this idea, so I changed the finds page to be a premium member perk.

I have now read this thread 3 times and to me, this change was made spitefully. Too bad but I'll adjust - no premium membership for me because I don't respond to that kind of manipulation.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890939 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 7:04am
Thread
I like you. (Tips her fruit hat.)
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890941 by Sir Braemoor
Mar 13, 2015 7:06am
Thread
This decision is a price increase without a benefit increase for some people.

Not really. It's more like you're just getting less for the nothing you pay.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890947 by dingus dufus
Mar 13, 2015 7:33am
Thread
Oh my goodness this is really turning out to be an awful Friday the 13th!! Hoping this is all a prank, please???!!!
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890946 by LuLaHe
Mar 13, 2015 7:43am
Thread
Not really. It's more like you're just getting less for the nothing you pay.

More semantics. Some that want this feature now have to either expend capital for it, or expend labor to get the data it delivers. That is a price increase. A price increase is agnostic to whether consumers are willing to incur it, or forgo the benefits they lose by not paying the increase. Its a simple term. Since this isn't an economics forum, I'll leave it at that.

If "you" is singular (and too bad for the passing for Middle English, when we would know), I'm not getting less, as I don't use the feature in question. I simply find the economic problems in this thread interesting, which is why I have commented in it a few times. If I found the feature was worth its price to me, I would pay for it.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890950 by Sir Braemoor
Mar 13, 2015 8:17am
Thread
Opportunity cost?
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890957 by dingus dufus
Mar 13, 2015 8:20am
Thread
Opportunity cost?

That's me reading these threads rather than working, and if I don't get back to work, I'm gonna have more costs than that ...
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890942 by JampersandJ
Mar 13, 2015 8:37am
Thread
I'm having a hard time trying to separate what is actually true and what people are assuming since you've made some changes.

everyone can see the list of finders and found dates of their own boxes.

Let's be clear. As of his posting at 7:14pm PST, no you could not. As of his posting at 5:21am PST, yes you could again.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890939 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 8:44am
Thread
How should I decide which features should be premium member perks?

If you're not careful, some of these guys will decide they prefer a stripped-down, non-premium AQ and cancel their subscription.

I have wondered if there should be a "beginner's AQ", a version that only provides the bare essentials for playing the game. Like, perhaps AQ with all of the perks turned off. And then as you become more experienced and start wondering, "Gee, wouldn't it be great if AQ could do this!", you discover that it can and start turning on all these wonderful frills.

I suppose we could call it LbNA.
Re: thank you Green Tortuga
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890833 by FloridaFour
Mar 13, 2015 8:49am
Thread
also thankful about the instructions.
I had to do my clue and then save it. Then go back and edit. Then I had the option to upload a photo. Sadly my photo came up sideways. I'm on the road and don't know how to fix it right now.
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890964 by Kelsung
Mar 13, 2015 8:54am
Thread
Let's be clear. As of his posting at 7:14pm PST, no you could not. As of his posting at 5:21am PST, yes you could again.

Glad you mentioned that. I was sure I could not see the finders of my boxes after the change but now I can!! Now I won't have to go look at my REAL logbook. Whew~
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890942 by JampersandJ
Mar 13, 2015 8:59am
Thread
True or False?

1) everyone can see the rows of FFFFs and XXXs and the last found date or ratio, like 12/15.
2) only premium members (P-M) can see the entire list of the finders for ALL boxes and dates found, unless owner has decided to hide this info.
3) everyone can see the list of finders and found dates of their own boxes.
4) only P-M have a total count shown of their boxes Finds and Attempts. This is shown at the bottom of the Finder List.

Generally all of that is true. The ratio (like 12/15) doesn't show anymore because nobody seemed to like it and nobody stood up for it, and I suddenly realized I was spending time and effort maintaining a feature that so far as I could tell, absolutely nobody wanted. So now it's just FFFF's and XXXX's. No more ratios.

As for #4, everyone who can see the finds page page will see total counts, but for the most part (with some exceptions) only PM can even see the page.

-- Ryan
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890964 by Kelsung
Mar 13, 2015 9:03am
Thread
Let's be clear. As of his posting at 7:14pm PST, no you could not. As of his posting at 5:21am PST, yes you could again.

This is actually true, but when I first posted my message, I actually thought the finds page was accessible to planters. It wasn't until after I posted that I discovered a bug in the code that was blocking it from planters. It was never supposed to hide that information from planters.

If you weren't supposed to access that page, you shouldn't have seen the "Finds" button at all on the details page. That page worked correctly and showed the button to planters, but the finds page was broken and not working correctly. I'm sorry about that, and obviously, it's been fixed.

-- Ryan
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890973 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 9:06am
Thread
I kinda like that the find ratios are gone. Regarding the FFFF's and XXXX's, if I were to change anything there it would be to reduce the number of F's and X's shown. Only the last five or six should be sufficient to tell finders that the box has gone missing. If the last five or six are X's, most of us are gonna conclude the box is gone, it's time for the owner to check on it. The only thing the older half dozen marks tell you is "Yes, this box actually existed at one time."
How I use the View Finds page
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Mar 13, 2015 9:07am
Thread
Having been boxing in the area for ten years now, I've found virtually everything withing a 100 mile radius. Therefore, in recent years whenever a new box is listed nearby I'm usually the first or second finder, simply because it is the only box around for me to seek. The downside of this is that I really enjoy finding an old box and looking through the history of finders in the logbook. I don't see that now without committing a day to a long road trip.

Lots of new boxers have come and gone over the years. As they stamp into older boxes that I've already found, many can go unnoticed to me unless I either revisit someone else's older box for maintenance (which I certainly do), or if they log a find on one of my own and I get a notice in my email.

However, I often look through the View Finds page on lots of local boxes that are not my own, to get an idea of who is active out there. It not only let's me discover many new finders, but also long lost people who have recently become active again. When we have events, I sometimes email these folks to let them know. In the fall of 2013, I actually mass-mailed a list of newer boxers that I'd been keeping track of over the summer and invited them all to an event. Not only did several attend who would otherwise have never known about it, but because they'd now connected with the local community, they became much more active. Some were encouraged to plant when they had been hesitant to before, others sought out mystery boxes they previously didn't realize existed.

I also can see finders who are from out of town, and have often contacted them to inquire how long they would be in the area, which has led to meet-and-greets many times that would otherwise have never happened.

I don't really use the View Finds page before seeking a box. Since I'm likely to be the first finder, it serves me no use. But I often use it for purposes of maintenance on older abandoned boxes and for fostering more communication in our local boxing community. It has become a great tool that has allowed me to be a better ambassador.

How do YOU use the View Finds page?

K
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890943 by Lovebirds-NC
Mar 13, 2015 9:39am
Thread
I have now read this thread 3 times and to me, this change was made spitefully.

I have to admit, I hesitated to implement this afraid that's what people would think, and I'm a little hesitant to even reply to this post since it kind of feels like it's trying to bait me.

And I know anyone who doesn't like me, or this change, or AQ in generally will ever believe it, but the change wasn't made out of spite. It was one of those "ah-ha" moments I suddenly had. I'm always trying to think of ways to give something a little extra to premium members and it never even occurred to me until now that the finds page is actually a perfect page for just that. It's not essential to letterboxing. I almost never use it myself and never used it before it was created but still found hundreds of boxes. It's also a feature I know that is wildly popular and it was like, "Duh! Of course it should be a premium member feature! Why didn't I think of that years ago?!"

The reason why is simple--AQ didn't start with a premium membership and the finds page had always been available to everyone. I kept trying to think of new features I could create for premium members and didn't spend much time thinking about what already-existing features should have been for premium members all along.

But at the same time, the only people it would affect are non-premium members and I figure, what are they going to do? Stop being premium members? Oh, yeah, they already did that. =) Take all of their boxes off of AQ in retaliation? One of the best premium member perks that people liked for years was the ability to list finds from unlisted boxes, but now that pretty much everyone lists their boxes on AQ, that's not such a draw anymore. From a financial standpoint, I actually do better if LbNA has a lot of boxes that AQ does not. So pulling boxes.... not necessarily a bad thing for me either. Although truth be told, I don't think enough people would pull them to make that premium member perk suddenly worth a lot more to everyone.

And truly, premium members are what have kept this website going. All of the features I create, I had time to do it because premium members allowed me not to get a regular 9 to 5 job that would have otherwise sucked up all of my time. There are so many features I've created for AQ that everyone benefits from--but premium members paid for.

So the change wasn't due to spite--not that I think it'll change anyone's mind on the matter. But I do think it's genuinely fair that premium members shouldn't always have to cover the costs that non-premium members take advantage of. Non premium members have had it pretty good for a long time, and I still think they have it pretty good since there are--relatively speaking--very few features have been limited to premium members only.

-- Ryan
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890975 by Kirbert
Mar 13, 2015 9:43am
Thread
if I were to change anything there it would be to reduce the number of F's and X's shown. Only the last five or six should be sufficient to tell finders that the box has gone missing.

I actually agree with you on this matter, and I have no problem doing this if everyone is okay with it. =)

But I will say that the main reason I put 15 F's and X's is so people can recognize patterns of hard-to-find boxes. A pattern such as FxFFxFxxFxFF might suggest that the box is still there, but that it's hard to find. With just the last five or six finds and attempts, that sort of pattern might be more difficult to identify.

-- Ryan
Re: How I use the View Finds page
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890976 by Kelsung
Mar 13, 2015 10:06am
Thread
How do YOU use the View Finds page?

I'm also not a premium member who used the View Finds page. I like to see who has visited my boxes. If someone doesn't make a comment on your box, you don't get an e-mail they've visited so it's fun to see who's out there. I'm glad that was given back to us because I did check that last night and noticed I couldn't see the finders on my own boxes.

Another way I use this feature is when I've travelled and I'm going to go boxing with a local. I can pull up boxes and see if the local has found the boxes I want to go after...assuming they've kept up with logging in all their finds. I won't be able to do that in the future, but I can just AQ them the list of boxes I want to find. I think most people will tag along with an out-of-towner even if they've found all the local boxes.

One of these days when I have more available time (it comes and goes) to spend on this hobby, I would consider a premium membership.
Re: How I use the View Finds page
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890976 by Kelsung
Mar 13, 2015 10:10am
Thread
How do YOU use the View Finds page?

I like viewing who has been there, maybe i'll harass a friend for taking their time going to find the box.
Most often, if i have received a maintenance needed report, i will browse the list for someone who lives near the box in order to contact them to make trip to check on it and do repairs. Having traveled extensively since letterboxing, i'm not in contact range of many/most of my boxes.
Re: How I use the View Finds page
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890988 by Baqash
Mar 13, 2015 10:15am
Thread
maybe i'll harass a friend for taking their time going to find the box.

I do that too! Especially when the person is usually first finder in the area. Shame on him/her for taking their sweet time to find my new box!
Re: How I use the View Finds page
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890990 by DogScout1
Mar 13, 2015 10:41am
Thread
You guys! A geocacher in my area once reported that a new geocache popped up and he got there in 20 minutes and was the 7th finder. As he was parking the car, he saw the 1st finder returning to his car with a big grin on his face. So, shame on all of you for taking your sweet time finding my new boxes!
Re: F-summary
Board: Letterbox Chatter
Reply to: #890984 by Green Tortuga
Mar 13, 2015 10:47am
Thread
I generally agree with everything in your post, but, as Sir Braemoor pointed out, there are real, though not monetary, costs to these changes, just as there are real, though not monetary, contributions made by the non-PM members of this community. Please don't loose site of these more abstract costs and contributions when balancing the pros and cons of a change.

In the end, we have to trust you to maintain this site, which is an integral part of many of our lives, in a way that is useful and helps hold the community together. That's a big responsibility. Thank you!

-TKV

P.S. Thanks for the one month free PM feature. It was very useful for our road-trip last week. Since I do use the site, and want to support it, I will probably be paying for my PM when the month is over.