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Re: New boxes in Fayetteville
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #959059 by wvelliotts
Apr 16, 2018 12:48pm
Thread
Wow, that sounds cool! We're down there every fall for Bridge Day :)
Re: New boxes in Fayetteville
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #959077 by wvelliotts
Apr 18, 2018 1:57pm
Thread
Sounds awesome. I see 21 already within 15 miles of Fayetteville that I haven't already gotten or attempted. One hundred will get my attention for sure.
Re: New boxes in Fayetteville
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #959259 by IrishRef
Apr 19, 2018 5:43am
Thread
My biggest problem right now is finding enough boxes. Good Lock-n-Locks are hard to find around Fayetteville. I've been in the Dollar stores so often they're beginning to recognize me.

I'm headed out this morning on a box buying run so I can plant everything I've carved this week.
Farm Crops 12th stamp replanted
Board: State: West Virginia
Jun 8, 2018 5:32pm
The cherries/logbook have finally been replanted.
Thank you, West Virginia!
Board: State: West Virginia
Aug 2, 2018 8:21am
I have now posted all my plants and finds from my recent trip through southern West Virginia. I enjoyed this trip so much and wish I could have lingered a little longer in many of the places. Living in Texas now makes me crave the sight of the Appalachian mountains. West Virginia definitely fulfilled my need to see green high overhead in all directions.

Hopefully I can plan another trip through other parts of WV next summer, but in the meantime I look forward to seeing updates from any of you who venture out to find the boxes I planted. Some of them rank high on my list of favorites, so I hope they make it worth your drive into the wilds of WV (but I have a feeling the mountains alone will make it worth it.)
Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Dec 5, 2018 12:55pm
Thread
Taking the temperature of the folks here to see what you all think.

In recent months there have been several boxes planted in the New River Gorge National River. Unless there has been a major shift in policy in the last month, planting in the park is still against the park rules.

I've been working for a long time to try and change the mind of Superintendents (to no avail) but I won't plant in the park personally. How do you all feel about boxes like these? I know the rangers do pull boxes in the park but so far the recent ones haven't been located by them. I know several of the rangers personally and they don't like finding boxes in the park given that it's known not to plant there. It's not like they pursue the planters to give them tickets but it's more of a nuisance. It just affirms their reluctance to change the policy.

Thoughts?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 1:55pm
Thread
It can be hard to remain ethical when others are doing wrong. I applaud you for yours. I'm sure you are aware of all the ways you can react to this so I won't elaborate. You have to follow your heart and do what is right; but I will say a rule is a rule and the rangers will somehow find out about these boxes.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 2:31pm
Thread
I wouldn't plant any but I would definitely look if some boxes were planted there.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 3:05pm
Thread
Thoughts?

I applaud you for respecting the rules and not planting there. If I were faced with this, I would send a message to the planter letting them know that these boxes are in violation of the Park's rules, and that you are aware of previous boxes being discovered and removed (and discarded?). So, if they value these plants, they should probably remove and relocate them to a more acceptable location, before that happens.

I wouldn't go beyond warning the planter, though. I wouldn't remove them myself, or "out" them to the Rangers. Let the inevitable happen if the planter ignores you.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 3:14pm
Thread
I feel like it makes us as a community look terrible. They said not to plant them, so don't plant them. I'd definitely write the planter and tell them to get their boxes out of there. I wouldn't remove them myself, but I also wouldn't go and find them, generally. I don't want us in the news for the wrong reasons. I would also bring it up to Ryan. I have heard he can make clues for boxes like these disappear.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 3:23pm
Thread
1. If they say don't do it, then don't do it.
2. The New River Gorge website it has a pack it in/pack it out rule.
3. If we alienate the management now, it will make it harder for those trying to get the management to change their minds.

We don't want another incident like the Disney decree.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 4:08pm
Thread
Unless there has been a major shift in policy in the last month, planting in the park is still against the park rules.

The speed limit on Main Street is 25 mph. Guess what. What should I do about it?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 5:23pm
Thread
To protect your positive and tenous relationship i would pull all those planted inappropriately. Could give you more cred with the park and it is the right thing to do. We had a similar problem years ago in Harpers Ferry. The NPS actively went after them. Good luck with this quest.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969091 by wvelliotts
Dec 5, 2018 5:29pm
Thread
Has it occurred to you that the people who have planted boxes in the New River Gorge area are not aware of a policy such as the one you describe?

We planted a box there yesterday, and we're assuming that's what triggered your post. We reviewed the NPS web site for the New River Gorge National River and checked the park's published policies including the superintendent's compendium. No prohibition of letterboxes (or geocaches) was mentioned that we could locate. If you know where to find this rule on the park web site, please post a link.

You say "it's known not to plant there," but how can one know there's a prohibition if it is not publicized by the park? Is this a rule that the rangers themselves have adopted on their own?

Thanks for any links you can provide to the publication of this official policy.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969103 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 6:02pm
Thread
i would pull all those planted inappropriately

That would just create a larger problem when people can't find the box they're looking for, because they'll spend more time searching, and if the location is delicate that could lead to greater damage. What is your goal? Making sure everyone follows rules? Or is the goal to make sure nothing is damaged in the park? If it's the latter, then never remove a box until the listing is first removed.

Also, is the box in an area where it could cause actual damage? I'd respond to a box that leads to people crushing a delicate alpine zone differently than a box planted in the middle of a forest. One is a technical rule breaking issue and the other is causing actual harm. It's the difference between driving 56 mph in a 55 zone (a violation of state law for which you can be fined) vs someone driving hazardously at 110 mph.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969104 by Road Junkies
Dec 5, 2018 6:05pm
Thread
To anyone who assumes that their fellow letterboxers are willfully violating rules and acting against the best interests of the letterboxing community and natural areas, please give people the benefit of the doubt until you find out the rest of the story.

Can't we all just get along?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969093 by Sagacorn
Dec 5, 2018 6:30pm
Thread
It can be hard to remain ethical when others are doing wrong.

Disagree. Wrong is wrong. If the park supervisors find out about the illegal boxes it makes it harder for those of us trying to get them legally accepted.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969106 by Rodney King
Dec 5, 2018 6:37pm
Thread
By emailing the planter and letting them know it's not allowed, you're not accusing them of anything. You're just letting them know. I say when in doubt, email the planter, but then, if they don't respond correctly, take whatever steps you feel appropriate.

And in response to knowing, I feel like anything that says National on it is out. I just avoid it like the plague.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969108 by PiggyJaunt
Dec 5, 2018 7:09pm
Thread
At one time, apparently most NPS properties did discourage letterboxing. As evidenced here, that is no longer a blanket NPS policy.

https://www.nps.gov/teachers/classrooms/letterboxing.htm

So in the absence of a stated policy on the park's site, there's no way for a letterboxer to know that planting boxes is prohibited in a particular park.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969108 by PiggyJaunt
Dec 5, 2018 7:27pm
Thread
if they don't respond correctly, take whatever steps you feel appropriate.

So ANYBODY can determine if ANYONE ELSE'S response is "correct"? And they can do whatever they want with the box, if the response didn't meet what they wanted it to be?

Sure, I can understand if something is dangerous or poses a threat. Common sense is a wonderful thing. But if someone plants a box, just because you don't agree with the placement does not give you Letterboxing Police Authority.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969110 by Everybody
Dec 5, 2018 7:31pm
Thread
So ANYBODY can determine if ANYONE ELSE'S response is "correct"?

Woohoo!! RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969112 by Anybody
Dec 5, 2018 7:47pm
Thread
Has there been a more alias spinning thread than this? Also dibs on the "alias spinning thread" meme.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969113 by Wronghat
Dec 5, 2018 8:05pm
Thread
Has there been a more alias spinning thread than this?

Hmmmm... let me think...
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969113 by Wronghat
Dec 5, 2018 8:15pm
Thread
Who? Me?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969104 by Road Junkies
Dec 5, 2018 9:53pm
Thread
You have been made aware of the issue by the local planter. Can we agree that it wasn't with ill intent? Based on those assumptions do you have any problem with a local moving the box off NPS property and communicating with you on clue changes?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969117 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 10:05pm
Thread
Based on those assumptions do you have any problem with a local moving the box off NPS property and communicating with you on clue changes?

Why? Where is there an indication that LBs are not allowed? As has been pointed out (WITH A LINK), NPS no longer explicitly prohibits them, and it is up to each park to make their own determination. Why remove someone else's box based on "well, maybe someone somewhere has an unwritten and unposted prohibition for this specific park, based on word of mouth"? How does it "look bad" or generate "ill-will", if the rules aren't posted and published?
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969117 by IrishRef
Dec 5, 2018 10:11pm
Thread
You have been made aware of the issue by the local planter.

And therein lies the conundrum.

The local boxer is "certain" of this policy prohibiting letterboxes yet there is not "official" mention of the policy on any park related listing of policies related to the prohibition of which they speak.

To me, if it isn't in verifiable format, it isn't actually a policy.
::shrug::
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969120 by wassamatta u
Dec 5, 2018 10:19pm
Thread
Not the point i'm making Wassa. It was an attempt at resolving with no ill will. Should know better than to attempt resolution on the message board. Suggestion is for local boxer and planter to discuss with an amicable resolution. Apparently wiser privately at this point. I personally welcome plants to our scenic state. But would suggest avoiding the NPS in these parts.
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969109 by Road Junkies
Dec 6, 2018 6:43am
Thread
It took a little digging, but here is the New River Gorge's guidelines for geocaches. I would assume that they would like letterboxes to be handled in the same way.

https://www.nps.gov/neri/planyourvisit/permit-guidelines-for-gps-based-activities.htm

I hope this helps.

dp
Re: Ethical question
Board: State: West Virginia
Reply to: #969131 by dancingpecan
Dec 6, 2018 6:55am
Thread
Thank you, dancing pecan. We had followed a link on the site for GPS based activities but it was a dead link that led to a 404 error page. Good detective work!

We will contact the park superintendent and notify him or her that we placed a box there without knowledge of this rule and determine with the superintendent how to proceed.

Thanks again!