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Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651238 by Hart x6
Oct 31, 2011 11:04am
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Great minds think alike. I already cut the paper for a 4 x 3 book!

I'm on the case! :-)

AB
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651253 by Goofy girl
Oct 31, 2011 11:57am
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GG,

Whenever I go to a Jewish Cemetery I 99% of the time grab a pebble and leave it on a stone of someone who has had few visitors. Regretibly I neglected to do that when I first visited.

HOWEVER, I drove by the cemetery today, grabbed a stone and walked all the way back to Rose's stone . . . had a moment, brushed off some debris left by squirrels and left a pebble.

Yes, in the clue I will ask boxers who find this box to leave a pebble and I will even put 4 or 5 pebbles in the box itself so people will have no excuses :-)

hx6
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651305 by Hart x6
Oct 31, 2011 12:30pm
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Can you tell me the significance of pebbles left on headstones? All of my family is buried far away so as a child, we never visited cemeteries. My assumption is that it just means you are thinking of that person, but why a pebble?
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651311 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 12:40pm
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"The Jewish tradition of leaving a pebble or stone on top of a tombstone signifies that someone has honored the deceased person’s memory with a visit to the grave. A nice example of this is shown at the end of the movie Schindler’s List."
As to why, there's a few different explanations, mostly biblical.
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651314 by Raven
Oct 31, 2011 1:03pm
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Thanks. I never watched Schindler's List and if it's a Jewish tradition, we aren't Jewish so that explains why I've never heard of it.
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651325 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 1:57pm
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Dizzy,

Go to YouTube and type in Schindler's List final scene and it will come up -- I would post the link for you, but I'm not allowed on YouTube on a work computer (it's restricked along with Pandora) . . . AQ on the other hand ;-)

hx6
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651325 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 2:24pm
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I'm not Jewish either but I figured it was as if we left flowers.

GG
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651339 by Hart x6
Oct 31, 2011 2:45pm
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I found a couple of things on Youtube that look like the final scene. One was in English and it cut off as the Schindler Jews of today were walking across the field. The other was in German and after it showed the Jews walking across the field, it showed a few of them placing stones on Oskar Schindler's headstone but never explained why. I guess it must have cut off before it explained. My 2 years of high school German from 20 years ago were enough to help me with some of the subtitles but it only talked about what happened to people and then gave some names as they were placing the stones.

However, when looking through clips, I did find a video of someone that was on her way to place a stone on Oskar Schindler's grave and in the comments, someone asked what the significance was and someone else responded with this:
In ancient times, a shepherd would carry a sling over his shoulder filled with pebbles corresponding to the number in his flock as a way to keep track. When you place a stone on a grave you are asking God to keep the departed soul in his heavenly sling.

That's a beautiful way of explaining.

As a side note, I'd be interested to see if anyone can find the final scene (in English) and link it here. When they were placing the stones on the grave in the German version, one of the subtitles said, "Niusia Horowitz, Das kleine Madchen, das Schindler an seinem Geburtstag küßte" and my really bad German translates that to, "Niusia Horowitz, the female child of Schindler who went on to the Birthday shore"? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding what they mean by the Birthday shore so I'd be interested to see what the English subtitles say.
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651350 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 2:52pm
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Google translator says this

Niusia Horowitz, The little girl who kissed Schindler on his birthday
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651352 by Goofy girl
Oct 31, 2011 2:56pm
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That's better than what freetranslation.com came up with!

"Niusia Horowitz, that small maggots, that Schindler kissed at its birthday"
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651353 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 2:59pm
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That's so funny and sooo wrong!!

; )

GG
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651350 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 3:02pm
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The little girl that Schindler kissed on her birthday.
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651350 by Dizzy
Oct 31, 2011 3:26pm
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I found a couple of things on Youtube that look like the final scene. One was in English and it cut off as the Schindler Jews of today were walking across the field.

That is the entire last scene. They never explain it, just show you.

It is a movie I recommend EVERY person in the world watch. It is hard to watch, and I wouldn't recommend for anyone younger than junior high. I saw it in the theater when it came out when I was in the 8th grade.

It churned my stomach, as did walking through various Chicago-land holocost museums did. May the horrors of the holocost be remembered as to not be repeated.

The last scene with Schindler in it, where he's crying out that he could've saved just one more -- chills.

hx6
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651355 by Goofy girl
Oct 31, 2011 3:27pm
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I know! I'm not sure I'll trust freetranslation.com again!

I looked at my German dictionary. Küß is kiss, but küste is shore. Küßte is obviously the past form of küß and I got it mixed up with küste. So now it all makes sense. Out of curiousity, I looked up "maggot" in my dictionary to figure out why freetranslation.com thought I typed it, and "maggot" in English is "Made" in German. I guess it totally ignored the -chen since I forgot to add the umlaut on the ä.

I think I'm done with my history and language lessons for today. :)
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651352 by Goofy girl
Oct 31, 2011 7:09pm
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Remember the little girl is the only one to have any color in the whole movie. That movie is so moving and yes, everyone should watch it. You will never forget it.

~Aurora
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651211 by Hart x6
Oct 31, 2011 7:11pm
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That's so sad... I wonder if they ever caught the ba-- the guy who did it. There must be a way to follow up on the story in the papers. I know Ancestry has (or had) a sizable newspaper archive; maybe the Salt Lake Tribune (or a more local Iowa or Illinois paper) is among them? I can't check since I let my subscription lapse..

The Pakrat
(Genealogist in recovery ;-)

YOUNG VIRGIN OF PUREST HEART
DIED A VIOLENT DEATH DEC 23, 1932

I don't know what bothered me more, the inscription or the fact that there were no little pebbles commemorating moments of remembrance from loved ones paying a visit.

When I got home I went to my friend Google and found Rose's story. Tragic.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers....
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651350 by Dizzy
Nov 1, 2011 5:18am
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Here is another explanation for placing stones on a grave which I found on another web site:
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"Sometime during the Turkish occupation of Israel, on a Shabbat, an Arab was murdered in Jerusalem. Quickly, the rumor spread that he was killed by a Jew, and an immediate expulsion order was declared. The Jews of Jerusalem had to pick themselves up and leave or be killed. A noted kabbalist (mystic) came upon the scene of the crime, which was crowded with Arab onlookers. Even though it was Shabbat, the kabbalist wrote one of G-d's names on a piece of paper and placed it upon the body of the dead man. The dead man rose and pointed to one of the Arabs standing in the crowd who became violently afraid and admitted that he had done the killing. The expulsion order was rescinded.
Shortly afterwards the kabbalist, who was an elderly man, approached the chevra kadisha (burial society) and asked that his tombstone be pelted with stones after his death because he had written during Shabbat. He understood that due to the danger to life he had been permitted to desecrate the Shabbat, but he felt that some form of repentance was in order nevertheless. Stoning his grave would symbolize the stoning penalty meted out to Shabbat desecraters. At first the chevra kadisha refused because of the implied dishonor the stoning would represent to so righteous a Jew, but the kabbalist persisted. Finally, they agreed to place stones on his grave, but only if they would institute the custom that all graves would have stones placed on them in the future. If stones were place on everyone's grave, it would not be a dishonor to the kabbalist. From then on, stones were placed on the graves of all Jews buried in Jerusalem, and from Jerusalem the custom spread, and today Jews all over the world place stones on tombstones when visiting a grave.
This may not be the actual source of the custom, but it's an interesting story."

The Pakrat
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651325 by Dizzy
Nov 4, 2011 11:17am
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Dizzy,
While this started as a Jewish tradition, it is catching on in other faiths. My mother is buried in a Catholic cemetery and lots of us leave a pebble on her stone when we visit for the same reason. The first time I saw this was several years ago while letterboxing in a non-Jewish cemetery. Curious, I did some research and found out that it originally started in Jewish cemeteries. Now, I see them in every cemetery I visit...(letterboxing in New England = MANY cemetery boxes!) Now that's it been introduced to you, you will notice it when you visit cemeteries too.

Wow, this has gone way off topic, lol!
Jackie
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651211 by Hart x6
Nov 7, 2011 12:43pm
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I'm late in my reading, what an amazing story and even cooler that two people are involved.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers....
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651451 by The Pakrat
Nov 27, 2011 2:06pm
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Another explanation to leaving stones on graves, rather than bringing flowers, is because flowers die.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658338 by Peanut Bethy
Nov 27, 2011 3:01pm
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Anyone know why coins are left behind?
If you're anywhere in New England and have ever visited the Memorial for the Salem Withcraft Trial victims, their "benches" are covered in money. No one seems to take it unless maybe it gets cleared away every night and starts fresh in the a.m.

I was astonished at how many coins were there. We of course, felt the need to contribute our own and so we did. Maybe it's similar to throwing coins in the fountain and making a wish. I don't know.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658346 by GreatBigSabres
Nov 27, 2011 3:24pm
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I placed a pebble on a tombstone at one of the Jewish cemeteries we stopped to during the Boneyard Event. I got the idea from reading about the custom in this thread..
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers....
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658338 by Peanut Bethy
Nov 27, 2011 3:35pm
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I'm not Jewish, and my Mom who passed away in mid-July is buried in a Catholic cemetery, but when the Hubs and I visit, we leave a small pebble on her head stone. It's amazing how many other headstones have them as well!

We're going up to visit her for Christmas and place a wreath on the grave. It's my first Christmas without her. My maternal grandparents and my Dad are buried there as well.

We'll also check on our box planted there for 9-11. We're hoping some folks have stamped in but don't normally log their finds.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658346 by GreatBigSabres
Nov 27, 2011 4:15pm
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Anyone know why coins are left behind?
If you're anywhere in New England and have ever visited the Memorial for the Salem Withcraft Trial victims, their "benches" are covered in money. No one seems to take it unless maybe it gets cleared away every night and starts fresh in the a.m.

I've wondered about this. I'm in New England but have only seen this done on Ben Franklin's grave in Philly. And funny enough, I just googled it and came upon this site that says some people think the custom started with BF's grave (a penny saved is a penny earned, and such...). Another responder says it's kind of like the wishing well idea, that the dead will help you if you make a wish.

http://askville.amazon.com/people-leave-coins-pennies-graves/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5670612
Re: Need a Logbook
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #651211 by Hart x6
Nov 27, 2011 4:38pm
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Wow! Thank you for sharing all of this. It is especially meaningful and educational for those of us who like to plant and find in cemeteries. There are so many stories and we could honor those who have gone before by just taking a bit of an interest and doing a little research....

We have a brother and family who are Jewish. Either "explanation" for the stones can be found in their tradition. We like to think of the cairn idea when doing this - those who have gone before have shown us the way. We should remember the lessons their lives provide for us -- gratitude, how to die, loving spirits, individuals who lived life to the fullest, etc.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers....
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658338 by Peanut Bethy
Nov 27, 2011 4:51pm
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Stones are strong (representing a firm steady spirit), resistant over time, and hold the memories of the loved ones who visited...and yes, they last much longer than flowers which wilt and die. This is the one I like best but I think no one really knows exactly where the tradition comes from...just that it's there and people still do it...Jewish or non-Jewish.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658346 by GreatBigSabres
Nov 27, 2011 10:25pm
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I once visited the gravesite of Sacajawea, and sure enough there were quite a few Sacajawea dollar coins surrounding it. That's sort of a special case, though. In general, I haven't seen too many coins around gravesites.
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658430 by Kirbert
Nov 28, 2011 4:23am
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On the Gettysburg battlefield, near the observation tower near Oak Ridge, is a monument--I forget to which group, but it may be to regiments mustered out of several Pennsylvania counties. On the side away from the road is a statue of a dog. The last time I was there, there were many coins, including several foreign, laid with the dog. There's at least one other dog on the battlefield, at the monument to the Irish Brigade. Next time I'm over there I'll have to check that one for coins.

But, yes...a stroll through a Jewish cemetery will lead you to many grave markers with stones on them. I'm forgetting the thought behind the practice offhand....
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658438 by Ralph Spoilsport
Nov 28, 2011 9:47am
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But, yes...a stroll through a Jewish cemetery will lead you to many grave markers with stones on them. I'm forgetting the thought behind the practice offhand....

http://www.templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/time/Life_Cycle/pebbles.htm
Re: Stones on Jewish grave markers.. (coins?)
Board: Logbook Logistics
Reply to: #658346 by GreatBigSabres
Nov 28, 2011 8:39pm
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Anyone know why coins are left behind?

I know why pennies are left on Hemingway's grave...