very nice...thanks for the link.
interesting that he mentions "alter ego" stamps. That is what I call my alternative signature stamps.
They are ones I did cause sometimes I wasn't in the mood for my usual old graveyard scene.
The graveyard came about because of my original trailname or DixieKin. I love genealogy and old graveyards and "Kin". Sometimes...quite often really..the image was to solemn for my mood or for the postal etc that I was stamping into. That is why my Alter Ego stamps were created.
They are listed here as PTs too.

dixie

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Just a quick question...does Cyclonic have permission to post all those stamp images of found boxes on his site? And btw, homage stamps are some of my very very favorites!!

LW PhD

From the information that is posted at the end of the page of images it seems as though not every letterboxer has given permission for posting. I'm certainly glad that Cyclonic doesn't come out to the left coast.

There are several letterboxers that would consider posting letterbox stamp images in the same way that posting hints or solutions to mystery letterboxes is viewed.

There are many of our letterboxes that have a unique twist when the finder looks at the stamp, and I 'm sure that other boxers may have similar letterboxes.

Bad idea unless permission is granted first.

Don

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Just a quick question...does Cyclonic have permission to post all those stamp images

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From the information that is posted at the end of the page of images it seems as though not every letterboxer has given permission for posting.

Well, he makes it quite clear which placers he has been in contact with, who have given permission.
The others I would say he hasn't heard from. At that rate, he has perhaps more permission to show the images than, say, someone who brings out their physical logbook at a gathering (who generally I think do not ask the placers' permission at all).

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Well, he makes it quite clear which placers he has been in contact with, who have given permission.
The others I would say he hasn't heard from. At that rate, he has perhaps more permission to show the images than, say, someone who brings out their physical logbook at a gathering (who generally I think do not ask the placers' permission at all).

While a finder has tacit approval for obtaining an image for their logbook and then can do whatever they wish with that logbook, I don't believe that extending that tacit approval to posting on the internet is correct. Obviously there is a difference between the two. Most placers realize that the stamp images they carve will go into logbooks and that logbook can be looked at by others. Placers do not expect those images to be posted on someones web site without their permission. If he felt completely free to post whatever he wished then why is there a notice regarding removal of an image at the bottom of the page? I believe that without prior approval the images should not be posted. There are methods that could be used when posting clues that give the placer ways to include stamp images and I've never seen that done. Why? because most planters wish the image to be a surprise.

Don

Well, there's the additional problem that most of us are violating copyright law already when we carve the stamp, so posting the image on the Internet probably isn't a terribly smart idea.

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most of us are violating copyright law

Is carving an image from copyrighted material a no-no?
I did it with a snoopy that I carved...
SS

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Is carving an image from copyrighted material a no-no?

Since we are not trying to make any money off of the images, or claim them as our own original work, I wouldn't worry about prosecution. :)

TG

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I wouldn't worry about prosecution. :)

thank you, I was really starting to get worried since the image is in my third box planted and I was hoping not to have to go get it back!
SS

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Is carving an image from copyrighted material a no-no?

Technically, I believe so. OTOH, we're not in this for profit, and only a handful of people ever actually see your stamp. Hence, I'd be really surprised if anyone ever files charges. It's far more likely they'll be happy about the stamp! Especially if you don't use the opportunity to badmouth the source.

I've placed a couple of indoor boxes that contained stamps that were reproductions of the logo of the establishment they were hidden in. Obviously I'm getting permission to place the box, so the proprietor knows what the stamp looks like. They're usually quite pleased.

A better question might involve stamps that are made from copyrighted images, notably photographs, that have been highly altered to create the stamp image. I've done that several times -- in fact, there's an example of a stamp made from a photo of a Spitfire at

http://www.nettally.com/palmk/RubberStampImages.html

and, in fact, a stamp made from a photo of a Chevy as well. Are these copyright violations?

Okay....been a LONG time since I've been in copyright class, but here's what I can remember. I may be off/wrong about some of this, and of course, these kinds of laws are CONSTANTLY changing (which makes entertainment/copyright law very profitable, btw), but here's the nuts and bolts:

1. We're not using it to make a profit. That's a good thing.

2. Use to be, if the image was 'changed' 10%, then the copyright was no longer in effect. So, if you take a copyrighted image, but changed it a bit (switch about the colors, eliminate some parts or add new ones) then you're good to go.

3. Single use for educational purposes without profit are acceptable. This is the one music/art teachers use A LOT, since their programs are hardly funded, etc. And, this arguement could be made by us, since there are so many homeschoolers on board (That's the ticket!). This part of the law is also the one that tends to change a be under attack in the courts a good bit, so you do have to be careful.

4. Posting the images online MIGHT be a violation, because that might go against the single use clause. He is now placing the stamp out there for more than one person (himself) to see. Those of us boxing have to go through the 'educational process' to get the stamp, and the arguement could be made that we're covered under the single use rights for that reason. When he posts the image, that MIGHT be a violation.

Like I said, it was a LONG time ago when I took this class, and this kind of law changes frequently. Not only that, but it was this kind of legalese double speak as well. That said, I think there's sufficient grounds to say that there's a fair use right here.

Of course, I could be wrong, and we could all be going to jail very soon! :-P

Jenni P McD

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Of course, I could be wrong, and we could all be going to jail very soon! :-P

I can see it now...a whole bunch of letterboxers on the lam! ;)

TG

All our logbooks on trial...

Your honor, I present exibit A, and B, and C and D.............

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Of course, I could be wrong, and we could all be going to jail very soon! :-P

And I have this really bad feeling that they wouldn't let us take our carving tools along for the trip to the slammer! They have this thing against sharp instruments...

Webfoot

FORKS - SPOONS - do they let you or could you sneak them out of the cafeteria? or do we have to decide on carving or eating? could be new fad diet what shall we call it - carve crazy?

You know, the POW's in Germany carved fake Nazi seals out of the hard rubber shoe heels.

Shiloh

Carving with a sharpened spoon..hrm...

You know you are a letterboxer when you ask for carving tools to be smuggled into the jail for carving stamps and not escaping...all that peace and quiet help the creative juices to flow!
SS- who is searching the web for more material to "copy" and self-incriminate by putting it in a box that is out there for all to find **just not posting the image on the web**!

For the record, one of our stamps is included in Cyclonic's page and we take no offense at it (although he did ask us if it would be OK). When you carve a stamp and then place it in a public area with clues posted for the world to see on the internet it is then foolish to expect that the contents are somehow private. Once you go through the long and deliberate process of making the stamp public your control of its image is relinquished. While you can make polite requests, the ultimate decision on the sharing of that image is no longer in your control.

If you feel that the integrity of the artwork or activity is damaged by someone sharing that information you should keep your stamps in a private collection. If you want your ideas and stamps shared and enjoyed by others...that's letterboxing.

jbzfarm

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Just a quick question...does Cyclonic have permission to post all those stamp images of found boxes on his site? And btw, homage stamps are some of my very very favorites!!

LW PhD

PS And how come I never see Cyclonic on these boards?? ;)

Do you miss me ;-) Honestly, not to sound mean or anything, but the stucture of these boards is arcadic, and I find them very difficult to use. Besides, I have enough trouble staying out of trouble in other places to be causing trouble here. The only reason I know of this thread is because it was pointed out to me. That, and the burning in my ears.

But to get to the thrust of the question (that sounds oh so naughty), I've really been lazy with my website. That is the truth. It all started out with this great idea a few years ago, I started work on it, throwing caution to the wind as I so often do, and not really caring about permission or anything.

People got mad. Some just out and out didn't like the idea, which is fine, as it was the same eletists who don't like anything new, but some thought I should seek permission, and I agreed they were probably right.

So, I set about it, contacting everyone who I posted stamps of. Most said sure, go ahead, otherss aid no thanks, it was not for them, and some never responded.

From there I got lazy and never really did anything about it. I intend to go in and clear out the non-responders but have yet to get around to it. It is what it is, and eventually I will do it. I've never been all that concerned because, well, no one visits my site anyways, so not really a big deal. I have been doing some work on it lately, so maybe soon I will get it done, maybe even this weekend.

Oh, and the homage stamps are a bit different because, well, they are supposed to be a mystery as to who actually has them and it tends to be a local thing (but could spread), thus I don't intend not to really change that page except to add a few more as I find them.

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When you carve a stamp and then place it in a public area with clues posted for the world to see on the internet it is then foolish to expect that the contents are somehow private.

What's missing in this comment is the fact that there exists quite a bit of history with letterboxing--publicly disclosing images of letterbox stamps is highly frowned upon--unless one's received permission from the letterbox planter to do so. It's akin to revealing the locations of mystery boxes. Despite all the innovations and variations of the game, it's still important to consider and respect where the hobby came from and the history behind it.

daelphinus

If the history of LB is so important, why use the internet? This hobby is evolving, not everyone may like every aspect of its evolution, but it has evolved from the very first box. While, during the early years the evolution was quite slow, the internet (the very vehicle in which you provide clues) contributes significantly to its evolution with no disrespect to its history. Change is the only constant, well, besides the speed of light.

jbzfarm

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If the history of LB is so important, why use the internet? This hobby is evolving, not everyone may like every aspect of its evolution, but it has evolved from the very first box. While, during the early years the evolution was quite slow, the internet (the very vehicle in which you provide clues) contributes significantly to its evolution with no disrespect to its history. Change is the only constant, well, besides the speed of light.

jbzfarm

I guess then you wouldn't have a problem if someone figured out your mystery clues(#20 through #31) and posted the easier clues on the internet. That would just be an evolution to some folks and an easier way for some finders to locate your letterboxes.
Ahh, but the history of letterboxing seems to be against that.
Some changes just should not be done.

Don

Ah, sorry about that Cyclonic. It seems I viewed your site before you were able to do a little spring cleaning. But I gotta admit..I love those homage stamps and try hard to get them when I can....

And thanks for poking your head up on these boards! It's good to see you, even if I WAS humiliated by being one of the few boxers unable to open your padlock on that evil box of yours...

LW PhD ( who just collects antique locks..but is unable to open some of them)

I agree with you in that some changes would hurt the integrity of the hobby. You know its only a matter of time until someone does have a blue diamond blog and answers to the mystery boxes. And some folks may like it and many would be terribly upset. I would not be surprised if a LB hitman was hired. Seriously, the only way to slow the evolution of it is to stick to WOM clues and not post.

IMHO...The difference between "sharing a stamp image" and telling someone the answers to the clues is that one of them disintegrates the point of the box itself (finding it). Just because I see a stamp image on the net, does not mean I have it or am able to find that box any easier. However, if the answers to the clues are posted and the hunters are looking up the answers, then the integrity of the hunters is in question. The game goes on for many boxers.

Personally, if that happened (the blue diamond blog and mysteries answered), I would turn to WOM clues only. Having someone post my stamp online does not jeopardize the integrity of the box, the stamp, the game or the clues. To have someone post the answers and locations of my mystery boxes infringes on the whole point of finding the box.

If we wanted to blanket the whole hobby with "respect to history" we would be using personal cards, not stamps and strictly WOM.

jbzfarm

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The difference between "sharing a stamp image" and telling someone the answers to the clues is that one of them disintegrates the point of the box itself (finding it).

We have a series for example where the stamp itself is a key to a code that allows the finder to figure out where the last box is located. Now granted the stamp is certainly not pretty or have any remarkable features other than the key code , so it would probably never get posted by anyone. Other boxes we have planted do have a different stamp at the location that tends to be surprise. Here is an example... A letterbox is planted at Henry's Bridge would have a carving of Bridge work (false teeth). So posting of those type of stamps would ruin and disintegrate the point of the box, or atleast alter the finders experience. In several of our boxes the stamp image was created to have that 'head slapping' moment.

You are right about someone putting up answers to mystery boxes and other shortcuts, but that was tried before and many clues either went off the websites or the titles kept changing. There was some letterboxers that posted shortcuts and comments regarding other information on letterboxes and that was done without planters permission and input. That created a short lived war between planters and the site. That site is no longer active.

The history of USA letterboxing has been web based and there has always been people who keep trying to change the game. My point is not that the images not be posted, but there should be prior approval and that wouldn't be that difficult to obtain.

I agree that there are reasons for pulling clues and going WOM, but for now I see the web sites remaining pretty placer friendly and that may be to the chagrin of some finders.

I do think that it is somewhat ironic that Randy (Mapsurfer) no longer lists his clues on(his) LbNA and that may certainly be due to too much information.

Don

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My point is not that the images not be posted, but there should be prior approval and that wouldn't be that difficult to obtain.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I've posted a couple of pix of my own stamps, but really I think permission should be sought before posting someone else's, even if you found it in a letterbox on public land.

To me, the online representation of a stamp image is sorta like a xerox copy of a signature. You can tell it's not the original, so it's not forgery. It's not like anyone is gonna claim they found the box when they didn't. But I suspect many people would prefer their stamp images not be posted online.

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but really I think permission should be sought before posting someone else's,

For what it's worth, I gave Cyclonic permission before he even asked me.

Janila of Team Little Dog

The Great Escape. And all time fav movie.

Scarab
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You know, the POW's in Germany carved fake Nazi seals out of the hard rubber shoe heels.

Shiloh

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The Great Escape. And all time fav movie.

Scarab
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You know, the POW's in Germany carved fake Nazi seals out of the hard rubber shoe heels.

Shiloh

I actually saw this on Discovery about some of the things the POW's would do.

Shiloh

So Scarab....now I know who to share my "special" collection of movies with......Great Escape, Dirty Dozen, Guns of Navarone, Das Boot, etc.

LW PhD (Who is just a big war movie junkie)