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US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27707 by BrewHiker
Jul 4, 2006 11:36pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote What is actually appalling here is NOT how the flag is being "disrespected", BUT how CLOSE the vote was to undermining the First Amendment


Well, if one is going to undermine the first amendment, at least they're trying to go about in the right way and actually change the constitution. There's a reason they put in the ability to change the constitution--it was designed from the very beginning to be changed and grow over the years. Even to change the changes--such as the 21st amendment repealing the 18th amendment.

Things like the government keeping tabs on my bank accounts or listening in on my phone conversations without any warrants--that sort of stuff scares me. If they choose to ban flag burning, I can live with that. =)

Quote Okay, it's a lot better if you skim over certain parts, like the list of grievances against King George III in the Declaration of Independence


Oh, come now--that's the best part! =)

-- Ryan
Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27674 by shiloh
Jul 5, 2006 5:38am
Thread (disabled) Board
According to the Supreme Court....you do have the right to burn the flag. According to the laws of every state in the union....you do not have the right to punch a person in the face.

Feel all you want....I'll recognize the law.

--GoSox
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27707 by BrewHiker
Jul 5, 2006 5:10pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote If you take the time to read the Flag Code, you'll find instances of disrespect for the flag everywhere you turn:

- imprinted on products of a temporary nature, such as napkins
- imprinted on product packaging to help sell it, such as the flag imprinted on product packaging next to the tagline "made in the USA"
- printed as part of advertising, which includes every single circular and flyer and advertisement in your July 2nd and 3rd newspapers
- imprinted on tee-shirts, stickers, etc.,
- painted on streets
- hung incorrectly
- painted on persons (though I can sometimes appreciate this one)


I have seen many of these instances and more that are absolutely disrespectful and it bothers me a LOT. I especially don't like it when it's the local fire department, school or other government office is the offender. Lately, in my area, it's been about flying the flag at half staff. That's a pet peeve of mine. It seems that they do whatever. The other thing I majorly despise it the flag being flown in inclement weather at night, unlit. That's a double whammy! My opinion is that it's similarly disrespectful, but because it doesn't create the same "shock and awe" that flag burning does, it doesn't rate as high on the scale for getting people upset, but it should. Disrespect tolerated at any level is still condoning the act. And like I said, these are places that should know better. Sorry, I just had to throw my loose change in the argument as well.

Fire Goddess
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27828 by Fire Goddess
Jul 5, 2006 7:21pm
Thread (disabled) Board
QuoteIf you take the time to read the Flag Code, you'll find instances of disrespect for the flag everywhere you turn:

- imprinted on products of a temporary nature, such as napkins
- imprinted on product packaging to help sell it, such as the flag imprinted on product packaging next to the tagline "made in the USA"
- printed as part of advertising, which includes every single circular and flyer and advertisement in your July 2nd and 3rd newspapers
- imprinted on tee-shirts, stickers, etc.,
- painted on streets
- hung incorrectly
- painted on persons (though I can sometimes appreciate this one)


These things are only representations of the flag. The flag of the United States is cloth, of specific sizes and produced by authorized companies. I could draw a picture and that is a representation and not an actual flag.

The real deal deserves respect!
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27838 by zoemomma
Jul 5, 2006 9:03pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote These things are only representations of the flag. The flag of the United States is cloth, of specific sizes and produced by authorized companies. I could draw a picture and that is a representation and not an actual flag.

The real deal deserves respect!


I can't argue with your last statement. Hear hear!

But, just to keep the fires a-burnin':

The US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1 - The Flag, Section 3 - Advertising Purposes, states:

The words 'flag, standard, colors, or ensign', as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

So, in effect, if I happen to have a package of napkins with a representation of the flag on them, I have, in my possession, contraband. And should I open that package and use a napkin to wipe mustard from the hot dog I just ate off my lips and discard the napkin, I will have committed a punishable offense! Oh... did I mention that the paper plate upon which the hot dog, hamburger and potato salad were resting had a matching representation of the flag printed on it? ;-)

Personally, I like seeing the flag and various representations of it used creatively.

It's a Grand Old Flag...

Steve
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27855 by BrewHiker
Jul 5, 2006 10:42pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Personally, I like seeing the flag and various representations of it used creatively. It's a Grand Old Flag... Steve


What drives me bonkers is seeing bikini & swim trunks emblazoned as American flags. I instantly think of the Flag Code and wonder if swimsuits & underoos were what they envisioned when they drafted that part of the code.

daelphinus
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27860 by daelphinus
Jul 6, 2006 4:39am
Thread (disabled) Board
A book a lot of you might find interesting is "Flag: An American Biography" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312323093/sr=8-1/qid=1152185832/ref=sr_1_1/102-4683012-0979345?ie=UTF8)

It talks about the history of flags (configuration, color influences) and how they affected the choices for the American flag. It also goes into some of the myths and interesting facts around the flag (did you know that the first "American" flag might have been raised in Somerville, MA?)

Either way, its an interesting read that focuses mostly on the history and whatnot of the flag and does not get into politics, so its a nice read.

Opa
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27692 by zoemomma
Jul 6, 2006 6:52am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote We all need to remember that our liberties are only ours until they infringe or offend others!!!!

I agree with this only to a point. For example, someone cannot claim free expression as a defense for murder, as it infringes upon my right to life. However, if I make a political statement that "offends" another person, I still have the right to make that statement, as distasteful as it may seem.

That is the heart and soul of what makes this country great--the fact that we can disagree about so many things, yet still pull together when times get tough. We're like a great big family in many ways (including family disagreements about what to do with the black sheep flag burners).

This is an election year issue. They knew they didn't have the votes to pass it (at least not right away), but they called a vote anyway so opposing politicians could use "no" votes as ammunition in election campaigns. They just picked an emotional issue and are trying to milk it for all it's worth.

Well, there you go.

8-)

Booknut
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27872 by Booknut
Jul 6, 2006 9:05am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote We all need to remember that our liberties are only ours until they infringe or offend others!!!!


Actually, that's NOT true. Being offended by something is not enough to make it legally stop BECAUSE of freedom of speech. That's why the KKK is allowed to recruit for members on the sidewalks of of several different states to this DAY and I can't do a darn thing about it. It's also why other people are allowed to protest AGAINST the KKK sitting on the sidewalk until they get embarrassed enough to leave.

However, the moment the KKK decides to burn a cross on my lawn or somewhere else where I can see it, it's a threat of violence (based on what it's always meant in the past) and THAT'S why it's against the law, just like what Booknut said about murder not being under freedom of expression. That's why hate crimes were put into law, not because they would offend other races & creeds, but because there is ALWAYS the threat of real violence involved. Burning a flag is offensive to some, but it has always been a symbol of nonviolent protest.

I think the problem in America is that we always want someone else to handle our business rather than confront it ourselves. Somewhere in the 80's, we stopped going out and protesting ourselves and starting demanding that the government step in for us. If you don't like flag burning, why not just go up to that flag burner with a whole bunch of your friends and peacefully protest against it? Or, heck, TALK to this flag burner and see what he's thinking! What if this flag burner was someone who'd fought for this country and been forgotten? What if this flag burner had lost family in the civil rights movement and still sees discrimination in his America? What if this flag burner is a Native American whose heritage and dignity have been entirely stripped by the "American dream"?

America simply doesn't offer the same comforts to everyone and it CAN'T, not by laws, anyway. Too many people have different attitudes and opinions to force them to think your way just by taking a vote and passing a bill. You CAN, however, move LOTS of people with numbers in non violent protest. It takes more time and effort, but anything worth doing is worth doing well. Our whole COUNTRY is founded on the belief that you can protest...remember, most of us came here out of protest or fleeing from OTHER countries that REALLY wouldn't let you have your say.

So, stop waiting for your government to help you...get out there and give those you disagree with a reason to believe in what you say...go make eye contact and talk about what ails you and listen to what ails them, if you're REALLY this upset. Posting here in an overzealous way only aggravates tensions and makes no real difference in anyone's approach...just strengthens their resolve to keep their own opinion safe.

In which case, it's probably pretty stupid for me to have posted this anyway! :-)

The S & H
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27708 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 9:14am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote That is our right and freedoms...part of what the flag stands for. if you like your freedoms then why burn the flag, a symbol of that freedom.


Because the flag symbolizes AMERICA in general, not just the freedoms. It also symbolizes the hurt and pain this country has inflicted upon others, even its own people. It's a symbol of EVERYTHING this country means to EVERYONE and there's a whole lot of us.

You have to remember that lots of Americans have had a HARD time in this country because not all the comforts that you or I have had are given to them. I know if I was a Vietnam vet, I'd have a REAL tough time not enjoying a flag burning. Telling him to move out if he doesn't like it seems to be a pretty harsh way to deal with a person who's defended those freedoms you spoke of.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27887 by Sprite and Highlander
Jul 6, 2006 9:49am
Thread (disabled) Board
>>>>I know if I was a Vietnam vet, I'd have a REAL tough time not enjoying a flag burning.


Most Vietnam vets I know are dead-set against desecration of the flag. Their country sent them there to protect the freedoms we take so casually. What they were angry about was those folks who didn't give them the respect that they deserved for DOING what their country asked.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27890 by zoemomma
Jul 6, 2006 11:05am
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Most Vietnam vets I know are dead-set against desecration of the flag. Their country sent them there to protect the freedoms we take so casually. What they were angry about was those folks who didn't give them the respect that they deserved for DOING what their country asked.


Conversely, most of the vets I know were angry that their country sent them there in the first place because they didn't feel they were protecting us or our rights at all and they lost close friends and family over it. On top of that, there was still less respect given to vets of color at the time and more likelihood they would be sent to the front line, so there's a whole other level of problems inherent with that. Oh, and let's not forget the wars in which Asian Americans have helped out, only to have their families thrown into internment camps. No one can be right or wrong about their personal experiences with this country and what it's meant to them.

It really still reinforces the point I was making...we only meet a limited amount of people in our lives, so we don't always get the full picture of what America is. We've had just as much to pat ourselves on the back for as we've had to kick ourselves in the butt for in this country, so not everyone who lives here has had the same positive feelings about this place. Still, it's all part of America and what that flag stands for, even (and especially) the crappy parts. Just because we know a bunch of people with a certain opinion, we can't claim right or wrong on what America means and what the flag stands for for others. With the good comes the bad.

So, you COULD look at a flag burning as being the burning of what's negative, not what's positive about this country...then you'd have to find out why that person burned the flag and what made life in this country bad for him/her and address THAT need instead of the surface offense of flag burning. Imagine what good we could do in this country if people did that more often...found out WHY a person did something and helped them through that pain or injustice before condemning them for the act alone. Now THAT would be an America to always be proud of!

The S & H
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27887 by Sprite and Highlander
Jul 6, 2006 3:21pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I know if I was a Vietnam vet, I'd have a REAL tough time not enjoying a flag burning. Telling him to move out if he doesn't like it seems to be a pretty harsh way to deal with a person who's defended those freedoms you spoke of.

Uh...NO...WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
like I said...if I had burned a flag I would never be able to look my dad's friends and other VIET NAM vets in the eye again.
I know many vets (some viet nam) who fly the flag with pride.
the folks left here to not fight that war were usually the ones protesting america and the flag...not the vets. Yes, there may be an occassional exception but please don't assume that viet name vets hate the flag etc. that is absolutely not true.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27890 by zoemomma
Jul 6, 2006 3:24pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Most Vietnam vets I know are dead-set against desecration of the flag. Their country sent them there to protect the freedoms we take so casually. What they were angry about was those folks who didn't give them the respect that they deserved for DOING what their country asked.

that's right.
viet nam vets are usually very proud folks...
and flag flyers...not burners.
this is my father and mother's generation...I know it WELL.

dixiekin
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27941 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 3:37pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Is this thread still going?

Here is a link sent to me by StarSeals.

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

The first line under respect makes my point for me but please read the whole section on respect.

Shiloh
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27940 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 3:41pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Uh...NO...WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
like I said...if I had burned a flag I would never be able to look my dad's friends and other VIET NAM vets in the eye again.
I know many vets (some viet nam) who fly the flag with pride.
the folks left here to not fight that war were usually the ones protesting america and the flag...not the vets. Yes, there may be an occassional exception but please don't assume that viet name vets hate the flag etc. that is absolutely not true.


You missed the other post...I was replying to the fact that not all Vietnam vets feel the same way.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27941 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 3:58pm
Thread (disabled) Board
It's my parents generation, too, which is why I posted what I did...I think you missed the post where I said America has been many things to many people. Once person, even MANY people's experience is not enough to define it for the rest. REad the rest and you'll understand my point: http://www.atlasquest.com/boards/message.html?gMsgId=27896&gThreadId=27452
Re: Background - ENOUGH!/please read this
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27944 by shiloh
Jul 6, 2006 4:07pm
Thread (disabled) Board
I'm replying to my own post so I can change the subject line in hopes some of you will go to the link and read it.

Shiloh
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27949 by Sprite and Highlander
Jul 6, 2006 4:18pm
Thread (disabled) Board
i DID read it.

I am sticking to my guns.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27951 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 4:23pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote i DID read it.

I am sticking to my guns.


Sounds good...we'll agree to disagree. Certainly neither of us can claim to speak for all vets or Native Americans or any other group, so we should probably drop it.
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27944 by shiloh
Jul 6, 2006 5:59pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Is this thread still going?


Without expressing ANY opinion concerning this thread, I thought this was the place were topics were sent to die, or had died. Is anyone going to get back to the business of letterboxing?
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27963 by speedsquare
Jul 6, 2006 6:06pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Is anyone going to get back to the business of letterboxing?

been doing it all day!!!!
:-)

dixiekin
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27963 by speedsquare
Jul 6, 2006 6:36pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote Without expressing ANY opinion concerning this thread, I thought this was the place were topics were sent to die, or had died. Is anyone going to get back to the business of letterboxing?


It had stopped this afternoon...not sure why we picked it up again, but I'm done (and never stopped the business of boxing!). :-)
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27969 by Sprite and Highlander
Jul 6, 2006 6:46pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote It had stopped this afternoon...not sure why we picked it up again, but I'm done (and never stopped the business of boxing!). :-)

it had actually stopped before that...yesterday I think and then when I came back from a day of boxing it was going again and I just HAD to respond...but my views are clear and I too am done. I hope. LOL

dixiekin
done until I have to defend something precious...
hey...my pirate name should be Bloody Dixie the Defender.
LOL
stopped Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27970 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 6:55pm
Thread (disabled) Board
yep...it had stopped late tuesday night or wednesday a.m.
THIS thread (Re: Background - ENOUGH!) seems to have stopped at a post made Jul 5, 2006 1:02 AM and then restarted by someone this morning.
(unless I missed something)
I got back on the boards after a FULL day of boxing and fun and then replied again in defense of my dad's viet nam vet friends.
that's all. :-)

dixiekin
stopped Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27971 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 7:03pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Quote I got back on the boards after a FULL day of boxing and fun and then replied again in defense of my dad's viet nam vet friends.


Yeah, I was only talking about the part where zoemomma and I were posting about people having different views about America. That was done this afternoon. With posts, it's hard to actually end them because people don't always know where they started and (like you and I), they want to speak up to make a point.

You'll be glad to know, however, that no vets (your family's our mine) were harmed in the making of this post! :-)
stopped Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27971 by Dixie
Jul 6, 2006 8:36pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Poor dead lemur.
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27860 by daelphinus
Jul 6, 2006 9:32pm
Thread (disabled) Board
swimsuits & underoos

Underoos? Ha! That instantly brings to mind Captain America...

So, is he, by definition of the flag code, illegal? :-p

StarSAELS
US FLAG: WAS: Re: Background
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27984 by BrewHiker
Jul 6, 2006 11:31pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Captain America is a skally wag, law brekin, scoundrel for the stars and stripes emblazened on his duds. 8-0
Re: Background - ENOUGH!
Board: Dead Horses, Lemurs, and Kittens!
Reply to: #27963 by speedsquare
Jul 7, 2006 10:50am
Thread (disabled) Board
If I make a personal stamp of the American flag and leave upside down stamps in journals....Is that being disrespectful.....????