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I love it. Kirbert you fit the model I was posting about. You tried to retort on all but the very last rhetorical question, which of course could be the most important of all.

http://www.atlasquest.com/boards/message.html?gMsgId=232569;gAuthorId=1931
Actually if you look at this post and follow it up and down you can see you can see Kirberts opinion. He also went on to tell me:

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It's probably difficult to imagine in how many ways your life would be different if religion did not exist. If you thought about it a while, though, you'd probably be very surprised to realize just how much of your life has been wasted.

I'm over 50 years old I've actually thought about it more than one occasion. And a life with without religion or God didn't seem all that much more wonderful or less of wast. Tuppence

Yes, I'd like to meet you sometime too. If you ever get to Spokane you’ll have to come and visit all of us.
KB is right Natalie better known as the Fat Lady in letterboxing circles, has written an interesting book.
Also I agree that with KB the everyone conducted themselves well in the discussion. I think it is very nice that Ryan let’s us have this board to discuss hot topics. I’m thankful that there are rules of conduct and people make an effort to abide by them. I enjoy being able to converse with so many nice and interesting people. :-) Tuppence

Okay, enough talk about Spokane!!! You are making me so jelous. I wanna come home!!!
Alaska HSM (Formly Spokane HSM)

I don't understand, within the confines of this conversation, why somebody hasn't pointed out that there are GAPS in scientific knowledge and things that can be proved, just as there are GAPS in religious description of creation.

Nobody is every going to "win" this discussion because Faith is just that...taking things to be true without proof. Actually atheists have faith that a supreme being doesn't exist too, don't they. And as far as evolution, there is a huge faith factor there too.....both for creationists and evolutionists. Actually, I think there is the truth somewhere is the middle but we mere mortals aren't smart enough to figure that out.
Zoe

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I think there is the truth somewhere is the middle but we mere mortals aren't smart enough to figure that out.
Zoe

Yep!

Don

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Nobody is every going to "win" this discussion because Faith is just that.

You are right it's not the sort of thing you can win, but it is the sort of thing that is interesting to discuss and some arguments seem less valid than others. Anyone that can’t admit that they don’t have all the answers, probably wouldn’t enjoy this discussion. Sometimes you just have to say I don’t know. I think we have just about worn this debate out for a while. There isn't much of the horse left to beat :-)
If we all agreed that some mortal really did know all the answers, we could all go out and buy his book and read it. And there would be no more discussion ever. :-) Tuppence

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Actually, I think there is the truth somewhere is the middle but we mere mortals aren't smart enough to figure that out.

Are you saying the truth is out there somewhere ? . . .

Oh sorry, that should be on the Television board.

KuKu

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...taking things to be true without proof. Actually atheists have faith that a supreme being doesn't exist too, don't they.

No. Atheists just don't accept things without evidence or reasoning to support it.

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And as far as evolution, there is a huge faith factor there too...

No, there is not.

Please, share your proof. I am truly willing to listen tangible, concrete proof. I don't want to accept another's beliefs just because they are saying so.

Okay, so I'm seriously behind the times on this thread, having only started to read it today, but I would like to ask the same question.

Where is the tangible, concrete proof that Jesus is the product of the egg of a woman and the unseen sperm of God? For all I know, Mary could have been lying about it to cover up getting pregnant because of an affair. Because "she said so" isn't enough proof for me.

The Bible is a collection of writings of people who are really "just saying so", voicing their opinions and observations on things that they experienced (and that Jesus told them). Also, it is so far removed from the original writings that I hardly believe that many of the translations still hold the original intended meaning. Ever played "telephone"?

For me, it's not enough proof. For all I know, Jesus (kind and altruistic though the Bible portrays him) was the ancient equivalent of a cult leader. "Because he said" he was the son of God and "was told so" by his mother, we're supposed to believe it?

Yes, I believe that all of these people existed. That doesn't mean I believe what they said.

Putting in my .02. Anybody got change for a dollar? ;o)

:o)
The happily agnostic 3H, who will find out the real truth when she dies someday, and is okay with that.

Putting in my .02. Anybody got change for a dollar? ;o)

*chuckle* I'll have to remember that one.

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The Bible is a collection of writings of people who are really "just saying so",

I just thought that this was a new subject and needed a new heading . The old one was there a God? I have to quite reading this board for while and get some fresh air and a life. :-)

I think if anyone agreed with Kirbert then they should've spoken up...I even pointed this out earlier.

Please forgive me, Kirbert, but I'm going to use you as an example here. SnS, please don't read into my words and think I'm attacking you or something. I am simply answering your question that you seem to really want an answer to.

In general, speaking out against or voicing contradictory opinions to a Christian majority has proven itself throughout history to be a VERY bad idea. Open any history book for glaring examples or this fact. Even today, in this country, where we claim to take pride in our "religious freedom" (don't get me started on that topic), contradicting Christian thought typically causes a person to be disliked or MUCH worse.

While I agree that Kirby doesn't always use the nicest words to explain himself, look at how negatively so many of you are responding to him! Why? Why does everyone CHOOSE to feel offended by the way he thinks? Yes, I said CHOOSE.

Why is it so wrong for someone else to think that there is no God? Doesn't it only matter to you what you think?

Why is it so wrong to believe that religion has been the fuel for the flames of so much evil that has happened in nearly every event described in those history books?

How do you feel about Kirbert because he speaks his mind about what he believes - which happens to be very different from what you believe? Possessing and speaking about anti-Christian beliefs doesn't exactly make him popular, right? So, hopping in and defending him would lead to people adding a little mental black mark on the names of those who agree with him.

Simple schoolyard politics - don't argue with the popular kids if you want to remain liked.

I would only like him to quit telling me how incompetent I am and that I'm lying to my child for believing in a higher power.

He did stop. A while ago. It's his belief that telling children that there is a God is a lie. It's your belief that there is one. You don't have to agree with him. He doesn't have to agree with you. You have made a choice to be bothered by what he said. Why? Does it really matter to you what he thinks of your parenting skills? Doesn't it only matter what YOU think of your parenting skills?

More schoolyard politics - if you don't like what someone says, just ignore them.

3H

there are GAPS in scientific knowledge and things that can be proved, just as there are GAPS in religious description of creation.

That's right on the money.

Most athiests, once they come to that point of view, do not question their point of view. The ones I've talked to say they have not questioned their belief in "no Supreme Creator". They demand proof and merely dismiss those areas that do not fit into their ideas, as in 'birds'.

So who is "closed minded"?

Wow-- that's a pretty stereotypic view of athiests. I'm sorry that you have found "most" to be that way, but let's not decide that is actually how "most" really are.

Personally, I have found that to be quite the opposite.

And as for the half-wing birds theory, I only sited another view to prove only that there is more than one way of looking at things (it may not be all about flight). It's the possibilities that are intriguing. I see nothing wrong with continuing to look for answers (or proof).

In general, speaking out against or voicing contradictory opinions to a Christian majority has proven itself throughout history to be a VERY bad idea. Open any history book for glaring examples or this fact. Even today, in this country, where we claim to take pride in our "religious freedom" (don't get me started on that topic), contradicting Christian thought typically causes a person to be disliked or MUCH worse.

And depending on where you live in this country, it can mean losing a job, losing friends, family rifts, and shunning of your children.

Wolf *who was shunned as a child by her father's family solely because her mother did not share the same faith*

There are some faiths that say even if a person were to not believe in God, or the God in any formal religion, but lived a life that was decent, that person would also go to heaven. I don't believe (and this is supported by the Bible and the church I belong to, though there is a lot of misinformation) that you need to believe in God to get to Heaven.

<<<In general, speaking out against or voicing contradictory opinions to a Christian majority has proven itself throughout history to be a VERY bad idea. Open any history book for glaring examples or this fact. Even today, in this country, where we claim to take pride in our "religious freedom" (don't get me started on that topic), contradicting Christian thought typically causes a person to be disliked or MUCH worse. >>>>>

Quite frankly, we all should be extremely grateful that we live in a country where we can have a heated discussion such as this....regardless of which side of the fence you are on. There are places in the world where we would be tracked down and executed with no questions ask and no reasons given.
Zoe

contradicting Christian thought typically causes a person to be disliked or MUCH worse.

I have no issue with Kirbert as a person. Just didn't appreciate what he was saying and felt I deserved as much freedom to voice my opinion as he had. The difference was that I was asking him not to insult others. I was not the one doing the insulting.

Why does everyone CHOOSE to feel offended by the way he thinks?

Wasn't offended WHAT he thought but was very put off by the attacks he was making.

Why is it so wrong for someone else to think that there is no God? Doesn't it only matter to you what you think?

Did I say he was wrong? Nope. Read the thread and you'll see that I never said he was wrong for how he believes/feels/thinks, etc. I never even told him that he should believe what I believe.

Simple schoolyard politics - don't argue with the popular kids if you want to remain liked.

Well, see that was exactly my point. Why make people defensive and argumentative? Why couldn't this have remained a healthy, positive debate where people felt accepted no matter their belief? It turned into that at points but only briefly.

I said:// I would only like him to quit telling me how incompetent I am and that I'm lying to my child for believing in a higher power.

Threehearts said://He did stop. A while ago ... You have made a choice to be bothered by what he said. Why? Does it really matter to you what he thinks of your parenting skills? Doesn't it only matter what YOU think of your parenting skills?

You make a good point about not letting him bother me with his opinion. I guess I was just amazed at what he was saying. About my quote asking him to stop the insults, I haven't responded to Kirbert since he stopped insulting people on this board. The message you quoted was in response to someone else who asked about my exchange with Kirbert.

For the record, I have no issues with anyone and would never consider someone unpopular for having a difference of opinion. Quite the contrary. My only point (which has remained unchanged) is that people have an easier time listening to your perspective when you aren't putting them on the defensive. I'm sure that is how we all feel no matter what our beliefs are.

My only point (which has remained unchanged) is that people have an easier time listening to your perspective when you aren't putting them on the defensive. I'm sure that is how we all feel no matter what our beliefs are.

Of course that's true...in a perfect world. But since this world is not perfect, and we can't change the world to adapt to our vision of what it should be, we have to learn to weed through people's attitude to get at their message. Forgive me for singling you out again, Kirbert, but we all know that his messages lack tact. Personally, I've accepted that facet to his personality and try to read his message instead of taking everything personally. He can't MAKE us be defensive, we have to CHOOSE to be defensive. If we don't make that choice, the conversation is easier. :o)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my thoughts without taking what I said personally. :o)

3H

He can't MAKE us be defensive, we have to CHOOSE to be defensive.

Great point! Very, very true.
:)

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Okay, so I'm seriously behind the times on this thread, having only started to read it today, but I would like to ask the same question.

Ye gads! I go offline for a few days, and somebody takes up where I left off!

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Put away the defibrillator, people! ;-)

*S

And somehow it's all right for "haters" to call those who believe in god "liars" but when you call them out on the table (by name) for being a person who just get their kicks from puting others on the defensive... your post get almost instantly removed.

Has it been 6 months already?

http://www.atlasquest.com/boards/message.html?gMsgId=241362

pre

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There are quite a few of those types of people lurking around here on AQ

I think I caught a glimpse of one of them in my mirror. Not sure though.
Kayak Bandit '(*!*)'

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There are quite a few of those types of people lurking around here on AQ

I think I caught a glimpse of one of them in my mirror. Not sure though.
Kayak Bandit '(*!*)'

The guy in the mirror must be one, or someone would have disputed it by now. I am off to find that guy and give him a piece of my mind. BTW, I need to start rationing my mind, because I do not have ample mind to give lots of pieces.

Kayak Bandit '(*!*)'

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It's been 6 months in dog years... ;)

Hi, my name is Bandit, I am a dog. I want to restart a previous post.
Bandit

If this discussion does start up again, where do we begin?

Ok- I will bite.

I grew up Roman Catholic. I have gone so far as to teach religion classes. I have studied many of the major religions plus paganism and wiccan.
Through my "travels" I feel I can say this with my whole heart (I am paraphrasing original quote by the Dali Lama) My religion is kindness. It does not matter what name or face you put on God, if you even believe in God, whether you go to a building, or the forest or your bedside to pray, as long as you are kind in the face of everything, you are on the right path.

Mouse