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Re: seasonal theme
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #346 by Mark
Nov 1, 2004 11:29pm
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I'm still interested in seeing a Hall of Fame for sig stamps and the long-awaited beer dispenser!

You know, it's amazing how much time I spend trying to decide what to work on next. Should I work to improve existing features? Or work on adding new features? I really like it when I can kill two birds with one stone, sort of speak. Like while creating these message boards, I created the mailing system to help eliminate the dependance on e-mail along the way. A stepping stone to bigger and better things. =) I never set out to replace the e-mail system--it was just a useful offshoot of working on the message boards and gave me time to test the system thoroughly before incorporating it into the larger system.

Ho hum, ho hum.... What to do next? Just fixed that little bug where these messages were displaying the wrong date the post was generated. The bugs are there--if you look closely enough. All the *obvious* ones I've already fixed! =)

-- Ryan
What to work on next...
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #347 by Green Tortuga
Nov 2, 2004 4:03am
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Ryan, I think you've poured a lot of time and effort into what you have. Give it time for folks to really "use" it. My only gripe is that folks from Maine don't list all their boxes, so I can't really record the finds that I have.

I like the differentiation between hitchhikers, but I don't agree with you in that these aren't applied to your planted count. I suppose I'm just a purist, if I carve a stamp and put it out in the world - I have "planted" it. That is why I left some of my hitchhikers listed as mystery boxes - so that they still "count"....ooh! listen to me, all about the numbers..... ha ha ha
Re: What to work on next...
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #348 by phyto
Nov 2, 2004 10:57am
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I also count my HH finds as F's. And that doesn't happen at Atlas Quest. But no big deal.
Because so many boxes (especially in the New England area) are not listed on AQ the counts will not be able to accurately reflect your PFX. It's just a ballpark figure.
I just keep trying to get folks to use it. It's hard to teach the old dogs new tricks, but hopefully the newer people will embrace Atlas Quest.

-Amanda
Re: What to work on next...
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #348 by phyto
Nov 2, 2004 1:31pm
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My only gripe is that folks from Maine don't list all their boxes, so I can't really record the finds that I have.

Yeah, but even letterboxing.org isn't a complete source of all the boxes out there. You can remind people that even if clues are word-of-mouth or otherwise have clues *not* for the general public, people can still list the existance of a letterbox without actually listing a clue. And that way others can still record finding it.

I've had SOOO many people asking they'd like to record found boxes that aren't listed in Atlas Quest, so I've started trying to think up a good way to do that. The biggest problem--from a programmatic standpoint, is what happens if somebody records a box that isn't listed on Atlas Quest, then the box later gets listed? How to reconcile the two?

The irony of all this is that my original vision of Atlas Quest was simply a place to record finds and plants--I never intended to create a search feature, but when that inspiration hit that one could search for boxes within a certain distance of a given point, I *loved* the idea and abandoned my original one. The original idea was mostly a tracking 'stats' kind of thing, while this one is more of a tracking actual boxes kind of thing. A very different kind of object model to work with, and very difficult to reconcile the two.

But I'm thinking to think of a simple way to combine the two. Or at least relatively simple. Sometimes I simplify concepts to make them work, and you'll see plenty of that on Atlas Quest.

For instance: A series, as AQ expects it, are boxes that the planter would expect people to find on a single outing. I know there are series such as the 45th parallel that are hidden all over the place. And originally I tried to make it work where a person could record a letterbox series--or a series of letterboxes. Such a subtle difference. But I was working myself into circles with that logic. What about a series of series? (One could have a "Latitudual Series" made up of series from each parallel.) When I came to the conclusion that people would always be thinking of new and twisted ways to hide boxes, I chucked the idea of trying to handle EVERY eventuality and required at a series be what the planter would expect a person to nab in a single hike or outing.

Then, of course, there's the simplification I made that gets the most complaints--about not allowing people to record boxes that the owner hasn't listed. Though, I'll admit, I justified that count partly on the basis that I thought some people wouldn't want their boxes even MENTIONED on a website. Based on the feedback, I'm thinking there might be a couple of people who feel that way, but I may have over estimated a possible backlash. Hmm.....

Another thought I had--which I hadn't really told anyone--was I didn't want Atlas Quest to become the definitive source of what makes up a PFX count. If you look at the Hall of Fame, I tell people not to take it seriously and just use it as fun. It makes it easier to tell people not to take the numbers too seriously because they are CLEARLY wrong in many cases! If I worked really hard on getting official counts, people might start taking those numbers more seriously. Numbers are fun, I think, but I want people to enjoy letterboxing for fun--not for the numbers, and it was a way to encourage having fun while not focusing too much on numbers.

But wow--there are soooo many people asking me to add the ability to record all of their finds, I've really got to figure out a solution for it. I don't even think it's about the numbers (not for most people, at least), but rather just a place they can point people and say, "Look! Here's a list of the boxes I've found!"

I'm babbling now, I know....

I like the differentiation between hitchhikers, but I don't agree with you in that these aren't applied to your planted count.

*chuckle* Hitchhikers are another one of those rare breeds that are devilishishly tricky to count properly, and I ended up choosing not to deal with it at all. Hitchhikers have the unique ability to be found by the very person who planted them, or to be found multiple times. The 'official rules of counting' on letterboxing.org say you cannot count a HH as a find if you planted it, and no letterbox--including hitchhikers--cannot be found more than once. From a programmatic standpoint, it's a heck of a lot easier just to count whenever the box is found--regardless of if the person had found it before or originally planted it.

Then, some people count their HH separate from Ps and Fs since they are so different than the normal letterboxes. I kind of like this idea, and am thinking about implementing it like that. Everything gets counted that way--even if it doesn't follow the 'official rules of counting'. I'd love to hear what other people think of how hitchhikers should be counted, though. Preference definitely goes towards what's easiest for me to implement, though! ;o)

I'm also concerned that if I start counting HH finds, people who pick them up at gatherings because they were sitting at a picnic table will say, "Yeah, but I found them on the table and should be counted!" Which is totally against how I think HHs should be found. Well, I don't mind so much if they copy the stamp into their logbooks, but I'd rather they not fill up the logbook in the hitchhikers which stamps from people who really didn't find the box, and I'd rather that HH not get counted as a find. I figured if I didn't count HHs, then people have no incentive to cheat on their HH found count. =)

Anyhow.... here's my proposal: Hitchhikers will be counted separately from normal letterboxes. All finds will be counted--even if found multiple times by the same person or if the creator of the box finds it. How would people feel about counting HHs using those rules?

On another note.... while implementing the ability to track exchanges, I learned from my mistakes. You can count an exchange whether they're listed on AQ or not! (Originally, I didn't envision it that way.) Rather than ask the user to try to reconcile exchanges with actual AQ accounts, I just use a simple test. Strip out all the spaces and compare it to trail names for AQ accounts, and if it's a match, it'll create a link automatically. If it doesn't match, there's no link. Elegantly simple and straight foward. =) Not a perfect system--especially if two people have the same trail name they like to use. Then sometimes people might type in an exchange that doesn't quite match up with the user's account. (For instance, some people might type 'Ryan' if they've exchanged with me, but my AQ account is actually named 'Green Tortuga'. AQ wouldn't be able to tell they refer to the same person.)

But then, it's just exchanges. If there are some missing links--it's not a big deal.

My original vision of exchanges would have also allowed one to track the date of the exchange and/or where the exchange took place, but then I started thinking--was that information really necessary? I might wonder if Phyto has met Team Green Dragon, but I probably won't care when or where such a meeting took place. Tracking extra data would be more work for me to implement and more work for people to enter exchanges!

All-in-all, I'm really happy with how the exchange system works. I had a ball entering mine! =)

To make a LONG story short, I've got some ideas about how to count hitchhikers. And I'm trying to think up some good ideas about counting finds for unlisted boxes, though I've been having more trouble on that count.

Happy trails! =)

-- Ryan
Re: What to work on next...
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #354 by Green Tortuga
Nov 2, 2004 2:20pm
Thread (disabled) Board
Honestly, I count hitchhikers as finds when I find them - and would not ever count my own as a find if I did run across it. I was merely talking about planting. In my case, a hitchhiker is no different from the effort that I put into a regular box except that it moves. I consider it a form of moving art project that reaches more people than a regular box. I'm all about mass consumption of art and such...this has very little to do with boxing when you get right down to it.

So my point is that I consider the hitchhikers that I've carved and released as part of my "P"'s but it doesn't matter! Everyone counts differently, and that's what makes it fun!

I also wish more people were creative with their hitchhikers and more of them were hand-carved. I'm really getting off the topic though - this is about atlast quest, and I'm babbling about hitchhiker carving and art.
Sorry!
Re: What to work on next...
Board: Atlas Quest Announcements
Reply to: #356 by phyto
Nov 2, 2004 5:57pm
Thread (disabled) Board
So my point is that I consider the hitchhikers that I've carved and released as part of my "P"'s but it doesn't matter! Everyone counts differently, and that's what makes it fun!

Yeah, that's part of fun, but it's not fun when you're trying to make a website that *everyone* likes. The art of compromise is great, though, because then I can make everyone upset and still be able to tell them I did something. ;o)

Just kidding, of course.

I'm really getting off the topic though - this is about atlast quest, and I'm babbling about hitchhiker carving and art.

You know.... there is a hitchhiker board here too. =)

Oh, BTW: Congrats on the gold trophy! Not too many people have reached that level (on AQ or otherwise) Of course, you are including some of those hitchhikers in that P count, so maybe I should wait a couple of more weeks before congratulating you. ;o)

-- Ryan