And regardless of how you feel about the war in Iraq, think a kind thought for our armed forces there.

Mark

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Thanks, Ryan, for the holiday background. Today begins the July 4 holiday.

Ah, indeed...it looks great.
Such a fun change to come back from a little vacation of camping to find! :D

-CQ

Amen to that , zoemomma
God bless America

Just got back from our fireworks display in town. They opened with the National Anthem...and when my husband, daughter, boyfriend and I all got up for the anthem...we created a little stir and soon there were more and more people standing with us. Made a big lump in my throat.

Thank you to all those that still respect the flag!!!

Bandaid

<<<Just got back from our fireworks display in town. They opened with the National Anthem...and when my husband, daughter, boyfriend and I all got up for the anthem...we created a little stir and soon there were more and more people standing with us. Made a big lump in my throat.

Thank you to all those that still respect the flag!!!


More of us need to demand that people act appropriately for the National Anthem and the presentation of the flag. I fear that the chills that run up my spine are not universally felt anymore .....at least by the younger set. Lots of sons, dads and brothers have died over the years for people to have the right to be obnoxious and self centered....and they could at least show proper respect.

zoemomma

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Thanks, Ryan, for the holiday background. ..it looks great.

Yes, love this theme, how GT finds the time whilst out in the wilds camping I don't know.

Anyway Happy July 4th to all of you over there. (It is July 4th now, here in England, so hope it is July 4th over there when you are reading this)

YT

Thank you Bandaid for creating a stir.

I confess here that I've never been in combat but it annoys me to no end when I see our flag disrespected. Our representatives in all their wisdom did not pass the law making it illegal to burn the flag which I thought was automaticlly covered under the *don't disrespect* clause.Maybe we should all contact them and show our feelings about it.

Salute!!!!

Shiloh

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Lots of sons, dads and brothers have died over the years for people to have the right to be obnoxious and self centered

I agree with you, but don't forget the daughters, mothers and sisters that have also given their lives for our freedom!

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QuoteLots of sons, dads and brothers have died over the years for people to have the right to be obnoxious and self centered

Whlile I agree with this to a certain extent, I should also have the right to express my dislike for such action. *putting a knot on their head* "but officer, I was just expressing my fredom of speach" *big grin*

Shiloh

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Our representatives in all their wisdom did not pass the law making it illegal to burn the flag

Actually the only acceptable way to get rid of a torn, faded flag is to burn it. The Boy Scout troops in our area provide this service every so often with all the appropriate ceremony that such an occasion deserves.

If it becomes illegal to burn the flag then I guess we'll all be flying faded, torn flags, which is also a sign of disrespect for the flag according to the "code".

Knit Wit

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Lots of sons, dads and brothers have died over the years for people to have the right to be obnoxious and self centered

I agree with you, but don't forget the daughters, mothers and sisters that have also given their lives for our freedom!

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments voiced in both of the quotes here. I meant to pipe in yesterday--my college roommate (female) tragically died defending our country back in 1999 along with 6 other courageous Soldiers. She was the inspiration for our 'adventurous' letterboxing trail name.

daelphinus of the Adventure Seekers
(formerly 'dvn2r ckr')

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Actually the only acceptable way to get rid of a torn, faded flag is to burn it.

You are correct about this but THAT burning is not what was being debated. It was when someone wants to burn it just because they think it's their freedom of expression. I cannot accept this. I take that as the same as being punched in the face. You don't have the right to do that and if you do I have the right to retaliate. I feel the same about flag burning as a freedom of expression.

Shiloh

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You are correct about this but THAT burning is not what was being debated. It was when someone wants to burn it just because they think it's their freedom of expression. I cannot accept this. I take that as the same as being punched in the face. You don't have the right to do that and if you do I have the right to retaliate. I feel the same about flag burning as a freedom of expression.

This actually happens very rarely; all the TV stations have dredged up the same 2 minute of coverage from ages ago. I agree that the people that do it are scummy, but I don't necessarily believe that amending one of the most precious documents ever written is the way to handle it.

I call dead lemur. Or at least move it to Yakkng it up.

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This actually happens very rarely; all the TV stations have dredged up the same 2 minute of coverage from ages ago. I agree that the people that do it are scummy, but I don't necessarily believe that amending one of the most precious documents ever written is the way to handle it.

I call dead lemur. Or at least move it to Yakkng it up.

I second the motion. Opinions are not facts, so you can only agree or disagree, not claim right and wrong. Plus, after a certain amount of strong posting from others, people start to take major offense and then the rest of the community loses the chance to have their OWN opinion without fear of reprisal. Let's move this to Yakking It Up and enjoy the holiday for what it is...a holiday to celebrate our become independent free thinkers as a country (oh, and to eat burnt spare ribs, corn and ice cream to our hearts content!).

The S & H

I've moved this thread to the dead horses, lemurs, and kittens board since it seems to be getting a little more heated than it should.

For what it's worth, I'm perfectly okay with people who want to burn the flag. Just because we live in this country doesn't mean we can't have an opinion about the people who are running it and all things considered, I'd rather have them burning flags than bombing buildings to get attention.

But mostly, it's a practical thing. What are you going to do to someone who burns the flag? Throw them in jail? I'd rather not be paying the prison bills for someone who decides to burn the flag. Fine them? If they refuse to pay, what then? Throw them in jail?

It also seems rather egotistical to me that we'd ban people from burning our own flag, but not the flag of other countries. If we're going to start banning flag burning, it should be for all flags. Let's not be discriminatory about the ban.

And finally, I'd like to point out, we can pass laws to ban flag burning in this country, but they have no effect at all in other countries. Castro can still hold massive demonstrations and burn all the US flags he wants and not be breaking any laws.

With all the problems in the world and all the things to get worked up about, flag burning just isn't that high on my list. Sorry, guys. I'm not inclined to burn any flags myself and I'm inclined to think those that do are paranoid idiots, but all things considered, it's not something I find myself getting worked up about. *shrug*

Hope you all enjoy the freedom to go out and do what you want on this beautiful day. =)

-- Ryan

True freedom is defending the right of another to say or do something with which you completely disagree. I think there are precious few people who actually can do this.

*tosses a dead lemur into the pile*

This will be my last post on the subject even though I know someone will respond with something I will want to address.

It seems a little hypocritical that as soom as someone (me) sounds off contradictory to your opinion that the posts get moved to a board that is other than mainstream. It feels a little like censorship. Yes it was getting a little heated but that's how strongly I feel about flag burning. I support your right to have your opinions even though I don't agree with them. Reread my post about being punched in the face.

Shiloh

I'm about as patriotic as it gets--currently been in the military for over 18 years and love this country and the flag about as much as any red-blooded American possibly could. As far as the flag burning issue goes, I lived very close and in two instances surrounded by countries whose citizens had zero freedoms to speak freely. The ones who did were usually executed. Although I cringe everytime I see footage of an American flag being burned I still wholly support the individual's free speech right to do so. That's one of the reasons why I serve in the military--to defend that right. Same thing goes for the jerk who routinely flips me off in Seattle traffic when he sees that I'm in uniform. It makes me fume and want to respond in a 'not-so-civilized' manner but he still has the freedom to express himself within the bounds of the law. That's the risk you face in a free society; better that than the other alternatives out there.

dälphinus

>>>>I'm about as patriotic as it gets--currently been in the military for over 18 years and love this country and the flag about as much as any red-blooded American possibly could. As far as the flag burning issue goes, I lived very close and in two instances surrounded by countries whose citizens had zero freedoms to speak freely. The ones who did were usually executed. Although I cringe everytime I see footage of an American flag being burned I still wholly support the individual's free speech right to do so. That's one of the reasons why I serve in the military--to defend that right. Same thing goes for the jerk who routinely flips me off in Seattle traffic when he sees that I'm in uniform. It makes me fume and want to respond in a 'not-so-civilized' manner but he still has the freedom to express himself within the bounds of the law. That's the risk you face in a free society; better that than the other alternatives out there.


We all need to remember that our liberties are only ours until they infringe or offend others!!!!

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It seems a little hypocritical that as soom as someone (me) sounds off contradictory to your opinion that the posts get moved to a board that is other than mainstream.

Actually, I only moved it when someone mentioned beating dead lemurs and it occurred to me that it was probably a good idea to move it. The responses to your contradictory opinion were far more worrisome to me than your post. =)

But like I said before, it didn't even occur to me to move the thread until that mention over those poor lemurs in such agony.

Gotta feel sorry for those lemurs. *shaking head*

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Same thing goes for the jerk who routinely flips me off in Seattle traffic when he sees that I'm in uniform.

I bet you look just dashing in uniform--I can't imagine anyone would flip you off for that! ;o)

-- Ryan

I have stayed out of this one and don't plan to pop back in but I have to at least say something here. I agree with Shiloh. I am not saying we shouldn't have freedom of speech but I see freedom of speech a bit differently I guess. I don't see it as a right to desecrate or burn or destroy something just because i don't like it and don't agree with some policy somewhere...etc, etc. I may not like it that the town put up a huge billboard or sign that blocks my once wonderful view but "freedom of speech" doesn't say I can burn it down either. Oh, I know...some will say that the billboard isn't my property, so it's different. Not really. The flag isn't just yours. It's mine too. The flag belongs to a Nation, to a people, to an understanding...or at least it did.

when folks move into this area and try to change everything to be like the places they fled and moved away from...then I say if you don't like it here...leave. Same with America. Yes, our freedoms make us special but if you don't like America and our flag...ship out.

dixiekin

who is not trying to be harsh or add to the fire...
I am not saying a support or do not support the new law.
I just can't believe anyone would even want to destroy the flag in disrespect.
I don't agree with our current governement but burning the flag will not help anything. Thankfully...America is my home.
:-)

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Yes, our freedoms make us special but if you don't like America and our flag...ship out.

That's not very nice. Some people might suggest it is better to stay and fight for what you believe in than run away like a coward. If it wasn't for people who stayed to fight the tough fights, we'd still be a group of 50 colonies supporting slavery.

Sometimes change has to come from within, and telling people who were born and raised here that if they don't like it they should go somewhere else is just downright unpatriotic. No country, no place is perfect. What should I do since there is no place in the world I feel is "just perfect"?

By your own definition--*you* should pack up and go to some country that already bans flag burning. China, perhaps? People have had the right to burn flags for a long, long time, and if you have a problem with that, you should go to a country that bans it.

Of course, I don't really believe that, but that's the tone I'm hearing in your posts. "If you don't like it, leave." You don't like flag burning, so leave.

Remember, some people burn the American flag not because they are trying to disrespect America, but because they love America and want to push for changes that would make it an even better country.

Mostly, though, it seems like a big fuss over a rather small amount of cloth.

-- Ryan

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Our representatives in all their wisdom did not pass the law making it illegal to burn the flag

Actually the only acceptable way to get rid of a torn, faded flag is to burn it. The Boy Scout troops in our area provide this service every so often with all the appropriate ceremony that such an occasion deserves.

If it becomes illegal to burn the flag then I guess we'll all be flying faded, torn flags, which is also a sign of disrespect for the flag according to the "code".

Knit Wit

I chose this message to reply to because it was close enough to the chain and it had the right statement.

What is actually appalling here is NOT how the flag is being "disrespected", BUT how CLOSE the vote was to undermining the First Amendment, which, if you don't know, says this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The fact that so many of our elected "leaders" and representatives totally disregarded the Constitution is a display of their blatant ignorance of such magnitude that all of the fireworks displays in this country on this very day could not compare to it.

How does the Constitution fit into this?

FACT: there are no federal "laws" (read: enforceable) regarding the American flag; states have their own laws, and most of them denote that descrating the flag is a punishable offense. (In Florida, it's imprisonment up to one year and a $1000 fine. I hope that one year in prison for that joker costs no more than $1000... but that's foolish thinking. It's probably $10,000 or more.)

So... Why the states and not the federal government? Because the fed is sworn to abide by the Constitution, whereas the Constitution gives states the right make and enforce their own laws, so the fed allows (more like tells) the states to police this. The fed doesn't have to get involved and keeps its Constitutional hands clean. The only place where the federal government has the power of the states is Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW: Flag Day, June 14, marks the date that the National Flag Code was adopted by the National Flag Conference with the purpose of purpose of providing guidance based on the Army and Navy procedures relating to display and associated questions about the U. S. Flag. This code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

FACT: Criminal penalties for certain acts of desecration to the flag were contained in Title 18 of the United States Code prior to 1989. The Supreme Court decision in Texas v. Johnson; June 21, 1989, held the statute unconstitutional. This statute was amended when the Flag Protection Act of 1989 (Oct. 28, 1989) imposed a fine and/or up to I year in prison for knowingly mutilating, defacing, physically defiling, maintaining on the floor or trampling upon any flag of the United States. The Flag Protection Act of 1989 was struck down by the Supreme Court decision, United States vs. Eichman, decided on June 11, 1990. (from USFlag.org)

What am I getting at here? WE FORGOT!!! THEY FORGOT!!! This has all been hashed out before.

If you take the time to read the Flag Code, you'll find instances of disrespect for the flag everywhere you turn:

- imprinted on products of a temporary nature, such as napkins
- imprinted on product packaging to help sell it, such as the flag imprinted on product packaging next to the tagline "made in the USA"
- printed as part of advertising, which includes every single circular and flyer and advertisement in your July 2nd and 3rd newspapers
- imprinted on tee-shirts, stickers, etc.,
- painted on streets
- hung incorrectly
- painted on persons (though I can sometimes appreciate this one)

... and the list goes on and on and on and on.

So what can we gather from all this? That while it is considered by most to be disrespectful and no one has a right to do it unhindered, burning the flag can be construed as part of the right of the people to peaceably assemble and can part of a petition to the government to redress grievances, and thusly can be construed as freedom of speech. But that's my opinion... and that of others.

Do I think it's right? NO
Is is disrespectful? I think so
Do I have the "right" to burn the flag? NO
Can I be thrown in jail for it? YES, depending on where I live.
Should I be? NO.
Am I going to cringe and cry every time I see that flag disrespected, as outlined by the Flag Code? No (because I'd be cringing and crying constantly, and that certainly can't be good for a person's humours).
Should this topic go on? No, no, no.

Something I think everyone should do BEFORE hitting the beach or the pool, and certainly before the beers and margaritas, is read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Okay, it's a lot better if you skim over certain parts, like the list of grievances against King George III in the Declaration of Independence, but by and large it's all good stuff. Especially the part about abolishing the current government and starting fresh. It's time for the good ol' boys network to tumble down.

Patriotic as ever...
* StarSAELS *

(what? don't believe me? look at my sig stamp)

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That's not very nice.

I didn't mean it that way.
It's not nice to desecrate something so dear to those who founded this nation, those who fight the fights, those who teach their children to love their country etc.
but really...nothing I said was meant as hateful toward any person.

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Some people might suggest it is better to stay and fight for what you believe in than run away like a coward.

Exactly!!
another reason the flag ( a symbol of freedom, pride and courage) is so important to us as Americans.

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Sometimes change has to come from within, and telling people who were born and raised here that if they don't like it they should go somewhere else is just downright unpatriotic.

I never said that and don't mean that either.

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*you* should pack up and go to some country that already bans flag burning.

No thanks, I like it here...freedom of speech and all but that still doesn't mean flag burning or cross burning or anything of the sort should be acceptable practices in my own eyes. If something is offensive or brings hardship to our citizens then it is no longer simply a freedom.

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Of course, I don't really believe that, but that's the tone I'm hearing in your posts. "If you don't like it, leave." You don't like flag burning, so leave.

The tone in my posts was meant to be nothing more than clear cut and simple but maybe it wasn't. oh, and...I don't like it so I don't do it...that's all. Just like porn...I don't care for it so I just don't partake. I do love America and my flag. So I'll stay right here.

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Remember, some people burn the American flag not because they are trying to disrespect America, but because they love America and want to push for changes that would make it an even better country.

I realize that fully but still don't understand it. That's all. Isn't it ok to say that we don't understand why some folks do whatever else they may be doing that seems crazy to us such as... drive drunk, be a bully, shoot the neighbors dog, throw rocks at little old ladies, make judgements on others because of appearance...it's ok to say we don't understand those things so it's ok for me to say I don't understand why anyone would want to burn the flag of their own country if they love the liberties that country affords them. I see people in Iraq burning the American flag on TV all the time.

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Mostly, though, it seems like a big fuss over a rather small amount of cloth.

and see... that is fine for you to see it that way and fine for someone else to NOT. That is our right and freedoms...part of what the flag stands for. if you like your freedoms then why burn the flag, a symbol of that freedom.
and again, I wasn't trying to be mean.
If I seemed so, then I apologize... but only for that... for sounding mean.
and I am not saying that anyone else has to agree with me but no one is gonna make me change my views on it either and I suppose I can't expect to change anyone else's...but still hard for me to believe it. I don't even own a flag to fly out on the lawn but respect it...I do!!!

dixiekin

P.S.
and again...this was not meant as an arguement. It is my opinion and views.
The one thing everyone says America stands for...Freedom...they want to use as their reasoning for desecrating the symbol that actually stands for that freedom. go figure *shrugs*

P.S.S
I have ancestors who died over the confederate flag and family who has died over the American flag...to them and their families it is not just a piece of cloth. Is that flag draped over the coffin of our dead soldiers just a piece of cloth? Not to me!

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Remember, some people burn the American flag not because they are trying to disrespect America, but because they love America and want to push for changes that would make it an even better country.

I want changes too but I am not willing to sacrifice my dignity for it.
for heaven's sake...I don't wanna send not ONE MORE soldier to Iraq and there are LOTS of things that need a change but if I were to actually support flag burning...I could never again look my grandpa (a WWII vet), some of Daddy's friends (Viet Nam vets) or my children in the eye ever again.

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We all need to remember that our liberties are only ours until they infringe or offend others!!!!

Well said. Thanks!

Good Night and
May God Bless you and America.
I love ya!!!

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What is actually appalling here is NOT how the flag is being "disrespected", BUT how CLOSE the vote was to undermining the First Amendment

Well, if one is going to undermine the first amendment, at least they're trying to go about in the right way and actually change the constitution. There's a reason they put in the ability to change the constitution--it was designed from the very beginning to be changed and grow over the years. Even to change the changes--such as the 21st amendment repealing the 18th amendment.

Things like the government keeping tabs on my bank accounts or listening in on my phone conversations without any warrants--that sort of stuff scares me. If they choose to ban flag burning, I can live with that. =)

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Okay, it's a lot better if you skim over certain parts, like the list of grievances against King George III in the Declaration of Independence

Oh, come now--that's the best part! =)

-- Ryan

According to the Supreme Court....you do have the right to burn the flag. According to the laws of every state in the union....you do not have the right to punch a person in the face.

Feel all you want....I'll recognize the law.

--GoSox

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If you take the time to read the Flag Code, you'll find instances of disrespect for the flag everywhere you turn:

- imprinted on products of a temporary nature, such as napkins
- imprinted on product packaging to help sell it, such as the flag imprinted on product packaging next to the tagline "made in the USA"
- printed as part of advertising, which includes every single circular and flyer and advertisement in your July 2nd and 3rd newspapers
- imprinted on tee-shirts, stickers, etc.,
- painted on streets
- hung incorrectly
- painted on persons (though I can sometimes appreciate this one)

I have seen many of these instances and more that are absolutely disrespectful and it bothers me a LOT. I especially don't like it when it's the local fire department, school or other government office is the offender. Lately, in my area, it's been about flying the flag at half staff. That's a pet peeve of mine. It seems that they do whatever. The other thing I majorly despise it the flag being flown in inclement weather at night, unlit. That's a double whammy! My opinion is that it's similarly disrespectful, but because it doesn't create the same "shock and awe" that flag burning does, it doesn't rate as high on the scale for getting people upset, but it should. Disrespect tolerated at any level is still condoning the act. And like I said, these are places that should know better. Sorry, I just had to throw my loose change in the argument as well.

Fire Goddess

QuoteIf you take the time to read the Flag Code, you'll find instances of disrespect for the flag everywhere you turn:

- imprinted on products of a temporary nature, such as napkins
- imprinted on product packaging to help sell it, such as the flag imprinted on product packaging next to the tagline "made in the USA"
- printed as part of advertising, which includes every single circular and flyer and advertisement in your July 2nd and 3rd newspapers
- imprinted on tee-shirts, stickers, etc.,
- painted on streets
- hung incorrectly
- painted on persons (though I can sometimes appreciate this one)


These things are only representations of the flag. The flag of the United States is cloth, of specific sizes and produced by authorized companies. I could draw a picture and that is a representation and not an actual flag.

The real deal deserves respect!

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These things are only representations of the flag. The flag of the United States is cloth, of specific sizes and produced by authorized companies. I could draw a picture and that is a representation and not an actual flag.

The real deal deserves respect!

I can't argue with your last statement. Hear hear!

But, just to keep the fires a-burnin':

The US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1 - The Flag, Section 3 - Advertising Purposes, states:

The words 'flag, standard, colors, or ensign', as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

So, in effect, if I happen to have a package of napkins with a representation of the flag on them, I have, in my possession, contraband. And should I open that package and use a napkin to wipe mustard from the hot dog I just ate off my lips and discard the napkin, I will have committed a punishable offense! Oh... did I mention that the paper plate upon which the hot dog, hamburger and potato salad were resting had a matching representation of the flag printed on it? ;-)

Personally, I like seeing the flag and various representations of it used creatively.

It's a Grand Old Flag...

Steve