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Read Thread: Thought on LnL quality

Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Aug 11, 2016 11:20am
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I have a couple of thoughts, observations and such about the reliability of snap-lid style boxes such as those sold under the Lock-&-Lock name . Those seem to be the most beloved of all containers for letterboxes. I know from experience with geocaches that the cheap dollar-store versions don’t hold up as well - the tabs seems to break off with repeated use. That might not be as much of an issue for letterboxes, there is often a huge difference in the frequency with which the two are found. A geocache may be found (and therefore opened and closed) a hundred or more times in a calendar year.

Anyway, on with my story. On a recent camping trip I managed to find 15 letterboxes. A bunch of those had not been found in 3-5 years, but they were all in remarkably good condition - most importantly they were dry inside! The boxes were all L&L type but I don’t think they were true Lock-n-Locks. A few seemed more like polycarbonate compared to polypropylene (maybe those are the “Krystal line” mentioned on the Starfrit USA website?). Anyway, if they were L&L they were older “models”.

I also found a series of boxes all in small true Lock-&-Lock / starfrit containers. That series was planted in 2014 and last found in July 2015. FWIW, the boxes were all unpainted and I noticed they were made in China. I thought L&L’s were made in the USA until I bought some a few months ago and saw that they were made in Vietnam. Maybe ones sold in the USA are made in the USA and those sold in other countries are made in Asia?

So there’s these old and lonely letterboxes that stayed dry inside after years and years in the woods. And there’s a bunch that were wet inside after one year. Placement did not seem to be a factor in my opinion – some of the old-but-dry boxes were buried in soil and compost, some under rocks, while some of the new-but-wet boxes were sitting upright on a bed of pine needles or under rocks or wired into evergreens. Other than age, the other immediately obvious difference is that the newer/leaky boxes were unpainted. I can’t see how that could make a difference in water infiltration rates and yes I understand that UV will degrade the plastics but they seemed to be in pretty good shape still after 2 years. And none were left in direct sunlight anyway.

So I guess my question is: like some stamp carving materials, has there been a decline in the quality of L&L boxes over time?

And also: do you do anything to help improve the seal on L&L type boxes? I have noticed some to be a bit ragged along the sealing edge of the box (not the lid) – this is the part of the plastic that is pushed into the silicon gasket. So I have used very fine sandpaper (400 grit wet-dry sandpaper) to try to remove any obvious deformities along that edge. I’ve also considered using a small amount of silicon high-vacuum grease or something like that with hopes of improving that seal.

And yet another thought – those newer/wet boxes were small (500ml) whereas the older ones were larger. I would think that larger boxes would be more leak-prone. Due to greater surface area along the gasket, as well as greater expansion/contraction volumes (or rates?) as temperatures fluctuate. Comments?

And finally, here’s something that people like Kirbert might find interesting (or at least will have something useful to say on the subject). I read this is a RockAuto newsletter. When I read it I immediately thought of LnL-style containers and whether they might be affected in a similar fashion:
A Quick Dab of Paint http://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/archives/7-21-16.html
Car tires should be rotated, but most other parts on a vehicle should be kept as they were originally installed until it is time to replace them. Below are three parts that I often remove while doing maintenance or repairs. All three should be reinstalled exactly as they were before taken off.
Air Filters: An air filter housing is designed to compress the foam gasket around the edge of the air filter. The pressure on the gasket is not evenly distributed, especially after a plastic air filter housing gets to be ten or twenty years old. One part of the foam gasket may be compressed more than other areas, and it might stay slightly compressed even after pressure is removed. Rotating a used air filter may create gaps between the gasket and housing that will allow some dirty, unfiltered air into the engine.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932782 by Bon Echo
Aug 11, 2016 11:56am
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I have authentic L&L boxes both made in China and Vietnam, and have never gotten any made in the USA. I find them stocked at Korean grocery stores and randomly at TJMaxx and other Home Goods clearance type of stores. I don't find L&Ls in other Asian stores in my area. They carry the knock-offs.

I *think* L&Ls originated in Korea, or at least that style. I watch Korean dramas, and have seen those type of containers used regularly (people dropping off food to others) way before they became popular in the USA.

When I get a box (L&L or other), I put decorator marbles in it, and immerse the box in water for hours. The marbles have always remained dry in a L&L, whereas most knock offs allow some moisture.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932783 by JampersandJ
Aug 11, 2016 12:15pm
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have never gotten any made in the USA

I bought a number of the glass-bottomed L&L around 2011 and they were clearly labelled as "Proudly made in the USA". But shipping thick and heavy glass products across the globe is not the same as shipping light plastic products.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932786 by Bon Echo
Aug 11, 2016 12:37pm
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I bought a number of the glass-bottomed L&L around 2011 and they were clearly labelled as "Proudly made in the USA". But shipping thick and heavy glass products across the globe is not the same as shipping light plastic products.

Very true! Which reminds me of the one glass L&L I bought at the Korean store. It doesn't say where it was made - it has 'Lock&Lock borosilacate' and numbers on the bottom.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932782 by Bon Echo
Aug 11, 2016 12:52pm
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Omg... can I have a 3 sentence summary, please, haha! :-) I had a long stressful day at work!

So my answer is: there has been a decline is just about every plastic, disposable item on earth, in the past several years. It is all about selling cheap junk, and getting people to buy more. We just do the best we can. The best container might be military grade decon containers, but now it is hard to find the real ones, and many people have a hard time opening them. Or maybe ammo containers, but those are huge.

Myself, I've just decided to plant less letterboxes, and spend more for better containers. Others have decided to spend less on containers and not put in logbooks. That way, if the box does get wet, usually the stamp still works. I no longer think letterboxes can last 10 to 15 years, nor is that my goal. I'm happy if they last 3 years.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932788 by FloridaFour
Aug 12, 2016 3:57pm
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I was hoping that this thread would spur a bit more conversation.

I've just decided to plant less letterboxes, and spend more for better containers

Please tell me what those better containers are and where to buy them. I'm not interested in containers that let water in after one season. I thought L&Ls were the containers to get, but my recent experience calls that into question.

Thanks
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932788 by FloridaFour
Aug 12, 2016 4:00pm
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... can I have a 3 sentence summary, please, haha!

1 - old and lonely boxes were dry inside; not sure what brand
2 - newer boxes (small authentic L&Ls) were wet inside, irrespective of how the box was hidden (IMO)
3 - what's up with that?
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932865 by Bon Echo
Aug 12, 2016 4:19pm
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The problem I had with cheap knockoffs -- the Dollar Tree knockoffs in particular -- involved the soft colored gasket that seals the lid to the base. It's down nestled in a groove, difficult to check out, but it's what is critical to sealing. It's gotta be really soft; if it's too hard, the plastic container will just distort trying to close. I think the good ones in a L&L are actually hollow, probably silicone. The ones in these cheap knockoffs were solid but still very soft and smooshy. After a year outdoors, they got brittle and just crumbled. And while I'm pretty good at finding fixes for issues like that, I couldn't find a good fix for them; the containers just need to get thrown away. I considered cutting gaskets out of my favorite gasket material, shower pan liner, but I would need at least three gaskets stacked up in the groove to make it thick enough, and because each gasket would have to be the correct rectangular shape, each one would use up about half a square foot of shower pan liner. The only way to use the scraps would be in screw-top jars that were smaller than the width of the rectangle -- and my usual Planters cashew jars are larger than that. Wasn't even worth trying, I just threw the containers away.

I even tried laying the lid down face-up and filling the groove with silicone sealant and letting it set. Didn't work.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932866 by Bon Echo
Aug 12, 2016 4:51pm
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2 - newer boxes (small authentic L&Ls) were wet inside, irrespective of how the box was hidden (IMO)

I hope that was just a bad batch.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932869 by Wronghat
Aug 13, 2016 2:42am
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I hope that was just a bad batch.

If it wasn't, you guys are gonna have to start learning how to cut gaskets for screw-top jars from shower pan liner!
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932868 by Kirbert
Aug 13, 2016 7:58am
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I even tried laying the lid down face-up and filling the groove with silicone sealant and letting it set. Didn't work.

That seems like it should have worked. Was the silicone too hard?
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932895 by Oberon_Kenobi
Aug 13, 2016 1:00pm
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It wouldn't spread the way it needed to. If it had been totally liquid, it might have worked, but as it was it formed all sorts of high and low spots and there was no good way to smooth it out.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932914 by Kirbert
Aug 13, 2016 1:27pm
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Would a liquid epoxy work? I think that there are some that set without becoming hard, but I'm not sure about that.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932917 by Oberon_Kenobi
Aug 13, 2016 7:30pm
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An epoxy combined with a single layer of shower pan liner might work. You'd have to put in just enough epoxy to bring the level up just right. Might want to lightly close it to make sure it's all levelled out properly as it dries.

I also considered going to my local industrial O-ring company and buying suitable O-rings. They'd probably have to special-order ones that large, and you'd have to pick a material that was soft, but once you had the correct spec selected you could probably order dozens and pay only a buck or two each.

All in all, too much effort for a container worth less than $2. As long as better containers (L&L's, screw-top Planters cashew jars) are readily available, just toss that lousy container in the trash and buy a new container.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932782 by Bon Echo
Aug 13, 2016 10:33pm
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improve the seal on L&L type boxes?

Go to a scuba store. they will have an O-ring lube that is for silicon rings.

Shiloh
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932941 by shiloh
Aug 14, 2016 1:46am
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You could just use K-Y. It is likewise designed not to damage rubber products.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932947 by Kirbert
Aug 14, 2016 5:16am
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Go to a scuba store. they will have an O-ring lube that is for silicon rings.

Good to know. I think the high-vacuum grease that I mentioned in the first post is a similar idea. We use it on glass-to-glass and glass-to-silicon joints in the lab.
If the seals are silicon, you can also use pure silicon brake caliper lube, widely available for a couple $$ from most auto parts stores. There's a lot of discussion on auto repair forums on brake caliper lube and swelling on the rubber caliper pin boots. Apparently pure silicon caliper lube will not cause swelling of those rubber boots, but other formulations might. Silicon gasket material should be a lot more resilient than rubber pin boots. Note sure about the polypropylene of the box, whether it could be affected.

You could just use K-Y. It is likewise designed not to damage rubber products.

It's also water soluble, and that is what we are working to prevent.

My main hesitation against using chemical on the seal in not really about chemical reactions but more about the messiness. Picture a letterboxer opening the box only to get a silicon lube on their hands, then on the logbook etc. It would have to be a very thin film to reduce that chance. I also wonder if the tackiness on the lubricant will lead to increased dirt sticking to the seal.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932868 by Kirbert
Aug 31, 2016 6:22am
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Just a thought on the gasket portion of this thread; has anyone ever tried to replace a gasket with
the rubbery window screen spline (I think it is called) that is used in the groove of a window screen
when replacing the screen mesh? I know there are different sizes available and some are quite soft
and pliable, used to have some around but can't find it now to try it out. Anyway just wondered if
it had been tried.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #933964 by shooz
Aug 31, 2016 12:00pm
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That's a good idea! Why didn't I think of it? The issue with most schemes for replacing that gasket is closing the end of the loop. If you don't come up with something, that'll be a leak. But I think those screen splines actually have something, a little thingy you can cram into the hollow spline to link the ends together.

If this works, I'm gonna be upset about how many containers I've thrown away.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #932782 by Bon Echo
Apr 3, 2017 12:24pm
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To dig up this older thread, I've started questioning my Lock & Locks recently. Over the past few months, I've opened a couple of my geocaches that were wet inside. We've had a lot of rain in California over the past few months, which seems to have worked its way into my boxes. It's hard to say if it was a gasket failure or a finder failure. If the finder leaves just one tab up, water will get in.

Also, a big issue to realize is that if a plastic bag finds its way between the gasket, water will get often in. So do you bag your logbook to hope to keep it dry if water gets in or do you not bag it because it seems more often than not, finders will clamp the lid over the corner or side of the bag.

I've been leaning towards no bags in my 11oz and 8oz Lock & Locks and hoping finders can clamp the tabs down.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #943951 by fbingha
Apr 3, 2017 9:02pm
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Perhaps you're a candidate for my screw-top jar army! I plant both letterboxes and the occasional geocache, and IMHO largemouth screw-top jars are the way to go. Buy a big jar of Planters nuts, eat the nuts, pry the cardboard gasket out of the lid and use it as a template to cut a new gasket out of a piece of shower pan liner, which is available on a roll at Lowe's or Home Depot. Install the shower pan liner gasket in the lid and screw it shut. Reliably watertight as long as finders close it up right -- but of course there's nothing you can do about finders. I've found a couple of Lock 'N Locks in which the top was snapped on upside down. Screw-top jars are cheap, and they have more space inside than the smaller Lock 'N Locks.

Before camo painting, I cover the lid with black duct tape. Krylon Fusion sticks to the clear container well enough, but no paint seems to stick to those lids very well -- and they are often blue, which can be seen a mile away in the woods.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #943977 by Kirbert
Apr 3, 2017 11:19pm
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{{{Buy a big jar of Planters nuts, eat the nuts, [....] Screw-top jars are cheap, and they have more space inside than the smaller Lock 'N Locks.}}

That's a good idea. I buy a container and get the bonus of food! Am I the only one (besides Kirbert) who buys food mostly for the container?

I've found a couple of Lock 'N Locks in which the top was snapped on upside down.

I've tried that in the wild with no success. I kept seeing this claim here so I tried it with one of my own. They actually can be snapped on upside down. It is more difficult than doing it right, but it is possible.
Re: Thoughts on L&L quality
Board: Tools of the Trade
Reply to: #943989 by Oberon_Kenobi
Apr 4, 2017 9:32am
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Am I the only one (besides Kirbert) who buys food mostly for the container?

I'd be buying cashews anyway, but this does impact which containers I buy them in! Planters also sells nuts in those cardboard jars with the snap-on cover, obviously no good.

There are lots of foods that come in very similar screw-top containers. My problem is that most of them are carbs, and I don't eat junk food. But most people do eat junk food, so they're probably throwing such containers away routinely.

A slightly smaller jar is the peanut butter jar, available in only slightly smaller than the Planters jar down to a much smaller jar. I can't use any of those because I won't eat peanut butter with sugar in it, only natural peanut butter, and it typically comes in glass jars because you have to stir it.

I've planted a few letterboxes in Kraft mayonnaise jars from when Kraft Mayo came in a most excellent wide-mouth jar. Unfortunately, Kraft went away from those nice jars and only sells their mayo in narrow-mouth jars now, so when I run out of my stash of jars they'll be all gone. The narrow-mouth jars are no good, too difficult to get a stamp and log book in and out.

Recently I've discovered another source of jars: Tucks medicated pads, or the Walmart Equate knockoff. Available in either 100 or 200 pad containers, the 100 being too small for me but I know a lot of boxers like to cram their stamps into tiny containers. Honestly, the 200 is still a bit too small for me, but I may use them for a series in which the first box contains only a stamp, no log book.

All require the shower pan liner gasket. As I've mentioned before, a building contractor needs a piece at least 3 feet wide to line a shower, so when the roll gets down to less than 3 feet the store will install a new roll and toss that scrap on a high shelf nearby. Sometimes that stash has several little pieces collecting dust! Explain to the employee why those pieces are worthless to the contractor and you might get them for free, or at least for half price. A two-foot scrap of 5-foot-wide or 6-foot-wide shower pan liner will make a coupla dozen gaskets.